For Americans: Does it embarrass you that George Bush is President?

[DrewDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
Exactly. But it's this kind of thing that is running American politics these days, and, by extension ... everybody else's.

This is a slam-dunk for the knee-jerk, Morals Matter Most types. And those guys VOTE.

[/ QUOTE ]

You see, this is the kind of simplistic dismissal that I really hate.

Are you saying that there was [/b]nothing wrong[/b] with Mr. Clinton getting a BJ from a young, impressionable intern who was not his wife? Absolutely nothing?

Yes, there are things that are far worse, and yes, it's not the end of the world, but I don't understand how people completely dismiss flagrant adultery by the President.

What I hear most often is: it didn't affect the job he did as President. ORLY? How do you know? He got his knob polished while talking on the phone to other heads of state, no pun intended. And that's just the stuff we know about.

And even if you think there was absolutely nothing wrong with Mr. Clinton's affair, do you really not see how deplorable Mr. Clinton's conduct was in the months that followed? He repeatedly lied and obstructed justice in the course of the investigation, trotted out all the members of his cabinet and inner circle to lie for him, and let his personal secretary Betty Currie roast over the coals instead of taking any responsibility for what happened.

I'm sure that the special prosecutor was overzealous, etc. as well, but Mr. Clinton's conduct throughout this whole ordeal was appalling.

And embarrassing.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't get the "embarrassed by clinton" folks.
But, I thought the reaction to and investigation of the bj was worse than the act itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I'm a democrat and I sort of get the "embarrassed by Clinton" thing. Maybe because I've been hearing about it for so many years from all my Republican friends. But what he did with Monica was a little ridiculous if you think about it. I would guess, though, that there are other reasons the Republicans felt embarrassed by him. I don't think it was just the relationship with the intern.

I think what's interesting is how people in this country feel so strongly about their candidates. A lot of us do, both democrats and republicans. People take it very personally when you insult or mock their candidate. I've tried to lighten up about it myself. I no longer care if people mock my candidate. I am able to laugh at their flaws too. I've picked some good ones [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

The main thing he did wrong was give the Republicans, who were absolutely ruthlessly hanging on to every possible opportunity to attack, even a shade of a shadow of a chance to make any accusations stick. The direction the country was going was too important to let his dick have anything to do with it. He was criminally stupid.

To be fair, it was an extremely high pressure job(at least if you're the kind of president who actually reads and works), and I doubt he was getting any from Hillary to help make him feel less alone and more, ahem, relieved. She didn't exactly take good care of herself back then either, so I doubt she took care of him. It must suck to be President and still not be getting your [deleted] like any other guy on the street can any day. Still, he should have handled that. In a way, he was elected partially as a sort of secular priest, and he should have had the common sense to play the role fully no matter how pent up and miserable it might have been and how many sharks were lunging for his privates.

[katyseagull]

[ QUOTE ]
He repeatedly lied and obstructed justice in the course of the investigation, trotted out all the members of his cabinet and inner circle to lie for him, and let his personal secretary Betty Currie roast over the coals instead of taking any responsibility for what happened.



[/ QUOTE ]

I can see your point DrewDevil and over the years I have learned to listen to my friends and respect their opinion on this matter.

I can't remember a lot of the facts now. I remember he did lie about the incident with Monica. I don't remember how he trotted out all the members of his cabinet to address the issue. How would you have suggested he have handled it? Just come right out and said "Yes I let her do me. I'm sorry." I mean given that he was a married man with a kid I think he was embarrassed to say that.

[katyseagull]

[ QUOTE ]

To be fair, it was an extremely high pressure job(at least if you're the kind of president who actually reads and works), and I doubt he was getting any from Hillary to help make him feel less alone and more, ahem, relieved. She didn't exactly take good care of herself back then either, so I doubt she took care of him.

[/ QUOTE ]

OHH, so now it's all Hillary's fault, eh? Ha! That figures [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Exactly. But it's this kind of thing that is running American politics these days, and, by extension ... everybody else's.

This is a slam-dunk for the knee-jerk, Morals Matter Most types. And those guys VOTE.

[/ QUOTE ]

You see, this is the kind of simplistic dismissal that I really hate.

Are you saying that there was [/b]nothing wrong[/b] with Mr. Clinton getting a BJ from a young, impressionable intern who was not his wife? Absolutely nothing?

Yes, there are things that are far worse, and yes, it's not the end of the world, but I don't understand how people completely dismiss flagrant adultery by the President.

What I hear most often is: it didn't affect the job he did as President. ORLY? How do you know? He got his knob polished while talking on the phone to other heads of state, no pun intended. And that's just the stuff we know about.

And even if you think there was absolutely nothing wrong with Mr. Clinton's affair, do you really not see how deplorable Mr. Clinton's conduct was in the months that followed? He repeatedly lied and obstructed justice in the course of the investigation, trotted out all the members of his cabinet and inner circle to lie for him, and let his personal secretary Betty Currie roast over the coals instead of taking any responsibility for what happened.

I'm sure that the special prosecutor was overzealous, etc. as well, but Mr. Clinton's conduct throughout this whole ordeal was appalling.

And embarrassing.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know what I hate, is people using their disagreement with you as an excuse to call your point of view simplistic. Frankly I think it sucks gigantically, is weak, and shows a bad conscience.

I don't give a [censored] where people put their dicks and I don't think it's any of my business or yours. Whether they are presidents or not means less than nothing. In the same way I don't care about whether J-Lo is wearing a new hairstyle, I really don't care about the private lives of all other public figures and I think it's pretty creepy that others do. I also think it's an inane excuse to hide behind when the truth is that it's just being used as an excuse for an attack that would have come anyway over anything else possible. We have an attack culture that tries to pretend it's something else, and I don't care for it.

Further, Monica was about the last thing possible from innocent, and it was hardly rape. This is the kind of exaggeration and story-telling I despise.

I also can't stand the idiotic storytelling mode that suggests that a man should actually talk to the public freely about what he does with his dork. The public's right to know is ZERO, and it has no effect on his office unless one wants to simply scream out that it does. The man can go to work in the morning after getting his [deleted]. People do it all the time. When he does, I sure as [censored] don't want to hear about it, and I think it's grotesque that anybody else would. It's pretty much a 100% guarantee that anyone criticizing Bill for not telling people all the particulars immediately about how his [deleted] wouldn't tell anyone about it if it happened to them, either, because that would make them a moron. I'm glad we didn't have a moron for president -- unlike now.

I'm revolted that Americans spent enormous amounts of money, time, and public attention on something that is none of their business, and think it shows many of them for the disingenuous scoundrels they are.

We even now?

[Blarg]

Blarg, you are killing me here. Slow down for me. I can't keep up with my censor machine!!



(*please don't circumvent the profanity filter! thank you [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

[ChipWrecked]

He could have taken care of the country's business instead of dipping his pen in White House ink. Like, for instance:


Sudan: Hey, you're looking for this guy Bin Laden, right? Well, we have him here, we'll grab him for you if you want.

Clinton: (wets cigar) Meh.

[NhlNut]

[ QUOTE ]

Well I'm a democrat and I sort of get the "embarrassed by Clinton" thing. Maybe because I've been hearing about it for so many years from all my Republican friends. But what he did with Monica was a little ridiculous if you think about it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure it's ridiculous. And not the way to comport oneself. But as a guy, I can totally understand it.

[ QUOTE ]

I think what's interesting is how people in this country feel so strongly about their candidates. A lot of us do, both democrats and republicans. People take it very personally when you insult or mock their candidate. I've tried to lighten up about it myself. I no longer care if people mock my candidate. I am able to laugh at their flaws too. I've picked some good ones [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

People do become so invested in their sides. In being "right". To win. Any slight or foible is attacked relentlessly.
It's become less about issues and more about personalities. To tie this into the topic at hand, I don't consider the Presidents public speaking gaffes embarrassing. So he's not a good public speaker. I don't care. I suck at it too. It's the other stuff I care about. (torture, habeas corpus, etc.)

[ChipWrecked]

[ QUOTE ]

Blarg, you are killing me here. Slow down for me. I can't keep up with my censor machine!!



(*please don't circumvent the profanity filter! thank you [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )


[/ QUOTE ]


To answer Blarg's question: no, I wouldn't, but Madeline Albright would [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Shadowrun]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He repeatedly lied and obstructed justice in the course of the investigation, trotted out all the members of his cabinet and inner circle to lie for him, and let his personal secretary Betty Currie roast over the coals instead of taking any responsibility for what happened.



[/ QUOTE ]

I can see your point DrewDevil and over the years I have learned to listen to my friends and respect their opinion on this matter.

I can't remember a lot of the facts now. I remember he did lie about the incident with Monica. I don't remember how he trotted out all the members of his cabinet to address the issue. How would you have suggested he have handled it? Just come right out and said "Yes I let her do me. I'm sorry." I mean given that he was a married man with a kid I think he was embarrassed to say that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like any married man (other than lostsoul) except substitute the word family with country. A little sample:

"Dear USA, in the following weeks you will hear all kinds of accusation and assertions about my character and administration. Make no mistake about this, most of these are false.
However, we live in a time where temptation is around every corner, and i just like the American public have faltered from time to time. What i am about to say is not something im proud of, but i understand and accept the responsibility to be honest, for you the people of the US and for my family.

I had oral sex with Monica Lewinsky, its not something im proud of and i am sorry to my family, but regardless it did happen. Now i will take any and all questions."

-Reporter Raises Hand ....