ask trying2learn about casino player ratings & the host position

[jdaddy]

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First off I'd like to thank you for the very excellent thread. It has been extremely informative and I appreciate the time you took to answer questions.

I wanted to ask you about Ballys and Rio. I know you may not have first hand experience with them but you may at least have some idea.

I am going to Vegas in May, and I will be looking to play enough on that trip to get comped rooms for a future trip in late July-August (during the WSOP).

My plan in May is to play Blackjack at ~$50 bets for ~3 hours and then ask for a casino host (at each place) about rooms for the subsequent trip in July. I think this will be enough at Ballys, but will it suffice at Rio? Also, I know that these two establishments are connected through Harrah's Total Rewards Program; does that affect my plan at all? (i.e. do I need to play at both or can I somehow cover it all by playing lots at just one?)

If it makes a difference, I am looking to stay at Ballys during the weekdays and at Rio over the weekend, which I imagine might make things even more difficult with Rio.

Also how much more would I have to play so that it wouldn't be unreasonable to ask for two rooms instead of just one?

And if anyone else knows stuff about these places, your input is appreciated too.

Thanks very much again.

Peter

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Peter,
As El D noted $50 per hand action is going to get you no where with any of the Harrahs properties. However, Harrahs has to have the most liberal "bounce back" room offers in the industry. My suggestion is to pick the casino you want to stay at (noting that Ballys is often more expensive than Rio which is due to location) and obtain "Diamond In A Day" status. In LV this takes 1800 base reward points in one day (6am - 6am is Harrahs gaming day) with Harrahs Total Rewards program. You get 1 base point for every $10 in Video Poker action and 1 point for every $5 in slot action. If you are going with a significant other or sharing a room with someone, you can both play under the same card.
Theoretical cost with VP :
1800 points x $10 per point = $18,000 Coin In
9/6 Jacks of Better VP = 99.6% Pay Back
$18,000 x .004 = $72
Figure on 800 hands per hour x demonimation x # of people playing on your card to determine time it will take.
You could get Diamond card w/ added bonus of drunk fest by simply playing low variance slots. The theo would be higher on the slots than the VP, but skill factor is zero and drinking factor is higher.
Giving this play will get you a nice bounce back cash offer, approximately $60 in comps and all the free room offers you need.
If you are planning on staying for weeks you will need hours of $250 + Blackjack or $15,000 - $20,000 coin in DAILY to be kept up in a comp room at one of these properties.
DO NOT spread you play around. You are not giving enough action to spread around. Concentrate all your play at one property. Yes, Total Rewards links Rio/Harrahs/Ballys/Paris/Ceasars, etc but $5000 action in each location is not meaningful to each individual location, nor can you establish a relationship with a host on that kind of action. $25,000 would at least maybe get you to talk to a host at Harrahs or Ballys.

[trying2learn]

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Surely the amounts wagered to recieve airfare & RFB will vary by casino ??

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Correct. I was looking for some secret technique or behavior that would be more likely to trigger an airfare comp or paid airfare offer to come out, avoiding the OP's suggestion of having to lose much more than the ticket cost.

Much like the old joke "how to get a free room in Vegas" -- lose enough to buy the whole hotel.

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do you stay at the same place every time? that helps. do you know what your ratings are on average? how do you travel? if it's a southwest flight from LA to Vegas for instance, you're not talking about a lot at all. there's just so many different factors at play.

[trying2learn]

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Peter,
As El D noted $50 per hand action is going to get you no where with any of the Harrahs properties. However, Harrahs has to have the most liberal "bounce back" room offers in the industry. My suggestion is to pick the casino you want to stay at (noting that Ballys is often more expensive than Rio which is due to location) and obtain "Diamond In A Day" status. In LV this takes 1800 base reward points in one day (6am - 6am is Harrahs gaming day) with Harrahs Total Rewards program. You get 1 base point for every $10 in Video Poker action and 1 point for every $5 in slot action. If you are going with a significant other or sharing a room with someone, you can both play under the same card.
Theoretical cost with VP :
1800 points x $10 per point = $18,000 Coin In
9/6 Jacks of Better VP = 99.6% Pay Back
$18,000 x .004 = $72
Figure on 800 hands per hour x demonimation x # of people playing on your card to determine time it will take.
You could get Diamond card w/ added bonus of drunk fest by simply playing low variance slots. The theo would be higher on the slots than the VP, but skill factor is zero and drinking factor is higher.
Giving this play will get you a nice bounce back cash offer, approximately $60 in comps and all the free room offers you need.
If you are planning on staying for weeks you will need hours of $250 + Blackjack or $15,000 - $20,000 coin in DAILY to be kept up in a comp room at one of these properties.
DO NOT spread you play around. You are not giving enough action to spread around. Concentrate all your play at one property. Yes, Total Rewards links Rio/Harrahs/Ballys/Paris/Ceasars, etc but $5000 action in each location is not meaningful to each individual location, nor can you establish a relationship with a host on that kind of action. $25,000 would at least maybe get you to talk to a host at Harrahs or Ballys.

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this is a very good post, from someone who is very educated. i would add that 9/6 jacks or better is becoming harder and harder to find because of this knowledge that is spreading, however Rio is one property that still has many of these machines.

[jdaddy]

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At a game like craps where it’s very busy and lots a different bets have different edges how sophisticated is the casino in tracking play?

So let’s compare two players, me and a friend.

When I play craps I usually buy in for ~1k and put quarters on the pass line and take full odds. I have wild swings in the amount of money in front of me, and it’s not uncommon from me to have to re-buy. I only have the pass line bet, never anything else. The house edge on my bet is ~1.4% and I figure to get between 30-60 come out rolls per hour depending on how busy/slow the table is. So the casino earning potential on my action is only ~$10-20/hr.

My friend buys in for $200 and will re-buy if necessary. He puts $5 on the pass line and takes 1 times odds. He also gets the 6 and 8 for $6 each and always takes all the hard ways for $1 each. This all comes out to an earning potential of ~$20-40/hr with the same assumption above.

So I have a lot more money in front of me and much bigger swings but I'm not losing nearly as much as my friend. We both play for 3 hours. Will either of us get a free buffet or anything else? Who gets rated better? Where on the strip should we be playing to get the best comps at this level (assuming either of us will get anything, this certainly doesn’t seem like host level play).

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It is my understanding that practially ALL casinos rate the Pass/Don't Pass bet only. So if you are $25 on the line, the you are being rated for $25 x Theo on pass line (1-2%). You may be able to get a buffet comp at a smaller off strip establishment with that action. You will not likely find $5 minimums on the strip, except maybe Casino Royal, so your friend will be limited to where he can play with the $6 6's and 8's.
Your theo on your play ($10-$20 per hour) sounds about right for your pass line x # rolls x 1.4% (remember odds dont count in theo as they are true odds). Look for a casino to give you 30-50% of theo back in comps.

[jdaddy]

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T2L,

If I make a trip to Vegas how regularly should I play table games to be sure I am comped? Say I stay for 5 nights, should I play table games every day? What if I gamble for the first 2 days/nights, then don't for about 36 hours while I go to shows, sight seeing, etc., then play the last nights. How would that change as compared if I play everynight?

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Okay...this question is good too...

Here's some general guidelines that casino's use.

3 to 4 hours of rated play is a good meter for the most part. This can be broken up...you don't need 4 hours for each 24 hour block for example. If you show up on Friday and play all night...you're probably covered for the whole weekend if you wish.

To be more clear...at Paris (the closest to mid-level I have first hand knowledge of) they were looking for a $100 avg bet for 4 hrs/day at the tables for a room comp. Obviously, that's going to go up when you get to nicer places, and down when you go to say, the Tropicana.

The 3 to 4 hours though is normally what they're looking for. The casino is not as interested in a player who is going to sit down with 1k and see how lucky he gets over a 10 min period (or a hand or two), as they are the guy who sits down and plays $50/hand for 4 hours, even though they may not expect to get a full 1k out of the second guy.

So to sum up...you don't need to spread your time equally over the five days...but you're going to want to try and play for at least 15 hours total over a 5 day trip...whatever amount you feel comfortable spending per hand over that 15 hours is up to you.

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Adding to this answer, your level of play required will be dictacted by the theoretical hold of your choosen game. Four hours of $100 bet action on a single deck blackjack game (good luck finding one of those!) will not be rated as well as $100 bet per throw at a higher house edge game.
Most casinos deal in theoretical losses.
House edge x bet size x decisions per hour = theoretial loss.

[bav]

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My suggestion is to pick the casino you want to stay at (noting that Ballys is often more expensive than Rio which is due to location) and obtain "Diamond In A Day" status. In LV this takes 1800 base reward points in one day (6am - 6am is Harrahs gaming day) with Harrahs Total Rewards program. You get 1 base point for every $10 in Video Poker action and 1 point for every $5 in slot action. If you are going with a significant other or sharing a room with someone, you can both play under the same card.
Theoretical cost with VP :
1800 points x $10 per point = $18,000 Coin In
9/6 Jacks of Better VP = 99.6% Pay Back
$18,000 x .004 = $72


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I was told last time I set about doing this that they reset at midnight.

As well, you ain't finding 9/6 JoB at Harrah's, Bally's, Flamingo, or Rio on a $1 machine last I looked. The lone 9/6 $1 JoB machine Harrah's had was removed in about March and now you have to play $5 JoB machines to get 9/6. Caesars still has 9/6 JoB on 25c machines, even, but I bet that doesn't last long (hint--don't try to put $18000 through a 25c machine in a day).

While the theoretical 99.6% is correct, variance is large and I'd guess most people don't play perfectly every hand. Your diamond-in-a-day may cost you $2000, or you may make $2000 doing it. Don't assume it's going to come out anywhere near -$72.

[Baulucky]

As a host, do you play any role on the classification and/or banning of advantage players at the casino?. Not outright cheats, but counters, trackers, sequencers and frontloaders. (Blackjack and 3-card Poker, for example).

Have you been involved in any barrings or trespass procedures?.

Do you know of any suspected advantage players that still get comps at the casino, or anybody suspect is inmediately banned from comps?.

Lastly, do you know of any frontload dealers at your casino? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[jdaddy]

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Harrah's properties are HEAVY on the EP/Theo trend...and i would expect this to stay that way for awhile as they are very successful. they don't venture into the heavy hitters realm as much as the bellagio, venetian, etc...they prefer to stay in mid and low level players than the super high ones.

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Harrah's casino strategy is also much more slot-heavy than the other corporate-owned properties. the Total Rewards system is so straightforward for machine players that once you get to Diamond level, you don't even necessarily need a host in order to book your entire trip for free over the computer. their long-term positive variance (for them) is presumably more controlled with thousands of quarter slot players rather than even just one $100K+ whale at the tables. so they can rely on EP/theo estimates being closer to actual win vs. a place with a few big baccarat players every weekend.

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Harrahs Total Rewards program is very heavy on Theo and their pit bosses try to do a good job of getting the average bets right (in my experience). Of course the slot/VP numbers are going to be 100%. Harrahs Total Rewards progam is very tight with comps. However, it takes very little action to start the mail offers. I am Diamond in the Total Reward program and my wife is Gold. She gets room offers every month on very,very little action. Harrahs website is excellent. It will show all offers, allow you to book off of those offers, track point and comp balances, etc. When booking a room online, if your offer is say a Free Room Sunday - Thurs, the system will frequently give you casino rate on weekends (assuming a non-high occupancy weekend).
The issue some folks have with TR program is that comps are what they are on the system. Hosts have very little discretionary comping ability. Example, you come in under casino rate based on prior mid-level action, you give them $20,000 coin in on Video Poker and earn $60 in comps. They will use those comps to pay toward the casino rate balance. Food is hard to come by with TR program. They offer no immediate cash back, only bounce back cash. If you don't live near the place where you earned bounce back and dont visit frequently that could be a problem for some.
Bottom line . . . . takes very little action to get future room offers from Harrahs Total Reward program, howveer you can expect very little else.

[jdaddy]

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OK so where do you work and how do I get you to nbe my host?

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i left that out on purpose, but i'll answer it...not really hiding anything.

*shameless plug alert*

i'm a host at a small property called the Silverton on the south end of the strip, about 2 miles south of Mandalay Bay. i was a host at Paris for 3 years, but this new casino was headhunting strip hosts for all the expansion they've been doing, and are still in the middle of.

it's a small and quiet spot, with a small (emphasize small) poker room and a couple nice resteraunts.

as far as a 2+2 host goes...i'll take care of anyone at anytime, just PM me if interested. i normally casino rate on the way in if i can't verify ratings ahead of time, but i'm extremely generous.

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I have no vested interest in trying2learn nor Silverton, but I will give my opinions.

Silvertons location is not so great, especially those who do not have a car and must rely on cabs, etc to get anywhere.

Silverton has very reasonable prices on rooms and the rooms are clean, comfortable and house keeping does a nice job. The check in is a breeze since there are only a few hundred rooms here. Silverton is very popular with the RV crowd as they have a large RV lot.


Silverton has pool. It has water in it. Not a lot of people.

They kind of have a country/old west/hunting lodge theme.

Minimum bets on BJ, Craps, etc were $5. As T2L notes, 10x odds for craps which is pretty good. Silverton also has a great Video Poker selection with a few different games with full pay. They even have lowly $.05 9/6 Jacks.

Silverton has a huge Bass Pro Shops attached to it. It is my understanding that there is some limited comp conversion to allow comps to buy all your needed fishing gear, after all you are in middle of the desert. (I know, I know there are lakes around).

Food : Lots of it and decent quality. All American Buffet is small and pretty good compared to other off strip properties. T2L notes that they are under some super expansion (why?). They have a nice seafood bar, serving typical seafood dishes. The 24 hour coffeshop is your average coffeshop, with some decent late night deals. There is also a steakhouse which I understand is pretty good and reasonably priced.

Overall, Silverton is a decent off strip property. I did not visit the poker room when I was there.

[Hornacek]

I don't have much to add, except I just spent the last 30 minutes reading through every post in this thread, and it has helped 30 minutes of a slow Friday at work pass by quicker. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

And I will def. look to you for potential Silverton hookups if/when I plan a Vegas trip in June.