Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity

[vhawk01]

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I thought I cleared that up, that while atheism is not a religion "per se," it does require a certain amount of faith.

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What faith is required to not have a belief in god?

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Atheism, as used in common vernacular as opposed to the strict definition, uses supportive arguments that require a certain degree of faith in something.

In strict definition, atheism requires no faith. The "vocal atheists," as individuals, however, always show faith in something by their choice of supporting arguments.

A common belief held by atheists who use science, for instance, is that scienctific consensus can't be the result of biased, errant, or falliable science that created increasing levels of groupthink with weaknesses covered by justifications which are merely the result of confirmation bias.

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Science isn't for or against god. Actually god's existence is (as of yet anyway) a very uninteresting scientific question.

Any anyone who believes science can't be fallible is per definition not believing in science, because common scientific method is about falsifying and constantly developing new and improved theories. Absolutes are largely uninteresting. A point which I see seems to flyby completely unnoticed by theists.

It is also this method of seeing the world which the largest criticism against theism - fluidity of belief vs rigidity of belief - what we know will change.

Also you are indirectly proposing an = sign between atheism and science, which is itself interesting and reveals maybe a fairly big bias on your part.

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Thre reason that I use science in the example is that science gets used by atheists in apoletics as if it were an infalliable piece of truth. Believing this requires a certain degree of faith.

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This is completely irrelevant and I hope you can see why. I even tried to give you an analogy, the thing about most Christians wearing shoes? You follow?

[vhawk01]

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Aha, this is who I thought you were, glad to see you back on your ORIGINAL name.

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Who do you think that I am?

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InTheDark.

[CORed]

As someone who settled on agnosticism a long time ago, I'm going to tell you that, in my opinion, when you die, you are gone. No heaven, hell, purgatory, limbo, not even reincarnation, and you don't become a ghost either. There is no way to absolutely prove this, but it is, I believe, far and away the most likely outcome based on objective evidence. I'm not sure, though, whether that is more or less scary than the prospect of eternal torment in Hell.

If I'm right, some time in the next few decades, I will simply wink out of existence, probably after some period of sickness and pain.

If the Christians (or any number of other believers) are right, I face an eternity of pain and torture. If the Hindus are right I may become a mouse or an ant or something (or maybe another human.

I don't know enough about the Hindu religion to know just how badly I've screwed up). If the Buddhists are right I will be reborn as another human being -- At least, i don't think I'm advanced enough to achieve Nirvana.

If Ed Abbey is right, and I manage not to get buried or cremated too quickly, I will be eaten by vulture, and my consciousness will be absorbed by the vulture. Not such a bad thing, IMO. If I believed that, I might ask that my body be left unburied in the wilderness somewhere, as he did. Yeah, vultures have to eat rotting carrion, but if you're a vulture, that probably tastes yummy. Besides, vultures can fly. It would be worth it to have to eat carrion, or bugs and worms for that matter, to be able to fly.

Maybe there is some religion somewhere that will let me get into heaven just for having led a reasonably virtuous life, even if I don't have faith. If I'm really lucky, they are right.

However, I don't think any of the possibilities other than simply ceasing to exist are likely enough to waste much time worrying about, and besides, there ain't a heck of a lot I can do about it. If you truly don't find the whole Christian bit believable, I don't really understand why the prospect of Hell worries you so much.

[bunny]

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Bunny, do you not remember the huge thread a few months ago (may have been the one about the Exodus, not sure) where I told you repeatedly that hell is real & gave you the passages to back it up??? I certainly do. But, to humor you, yes I certainly do believe you (or anyone else) will go to hell if you do not accept Jesus Christ as lord & savior.

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I really cant decide if you are deliberately ignoring most of what I write or if you are just reading so quickly that you leap to some conclusion based on what you've heard previous people say and assume that I am saying similar things. Sorry if I have upset you, I wont do it again. (To clarify - I didnt ask if you thought I was going to hell. I asked if you believe that God is going to lovingly torture me for eternity based on my beliefs)

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For the record, misunderstanding the Bible & not believing the Bible are two totally different things.

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I agree completely - if I am wrong about hell it's because I have misunderstood the bible, not because I dont believe it contains guidance from God.

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Also, I know several Christians from Australia & your 'interpretation varies based on geography' baloney, is well...just that...baloney. So that excuse doesn't hold water with me.

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It wasnt intended as an excuse. I thought it was self-evident that what is called christianity in the US was different to what is called christianity in europe, different again to what is called christianity here. If it's not self-evident to you well I guess one of us is wrong.

[Brad1970]

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Bunny, do you not remember the huge thread a few months ago (may have been the one about the Exodus, not sure) where I told you repeatedly that hell is real & gave you the passages to back it up??? I certainly do. But, to humor you, yes I certainly do believe you (or anyone else) will go to hell if you do not accept Jesus Christ as lord & savior.

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I really cant decide if you are deliberately ignoring most of what I write or if you are just reading so quickly that you leap to some conclusion based on what you've heard previous people say and assume that I am saying similar things. Sorry if I have upset you, I wont do it again. (To clarify - I didnt ask if you thought I was going to hell. I asked if you believe that God is going to lovingly torture me for eternity based on my beliefs)

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For the record, misunderstanding the Bible & not believing the Bible are two totally different things.

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I agree completely - if I am wrong about hell it's because I have misunderstood the bible, not because I dont believe it contains guidance from God.

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Also, I know several Christians from Australia & your 'interpretation varies based on geography' baloney, is well...just that...baloney. So that excuse doesn't hold water with me.

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It wasnt intended as an excuse. I thought it was self-evident that what is called christianity in the US was different to what is called christianity in europe, different again to what is called christianity here. If it's not self-evident to you well I guess one of us is wrong.

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I don't know what all of your 'beliefs' are Bunny...I'm afraid to ask. But, as I said, you & I have been over this before. Go back & look up that thread if you don't believe me. My stance hasn't changed. Jesus Christ is the only way to slavation from hell. Period. What is so hard to understand about my that?

[vhawk01]

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Bunny, do you not remember the huge thread a few months ago (may have been the one about the Exodus, not sure) where I told you repeatedly that hell is real & gave you the passages to back it up??? I certainly do. But, to humor you, yes I certainly do believe you (or anyone else) will go to hell if you do not accept Jesus Christ as lord & savior.

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I really cant decide if you are deliberately ignoring most of what I write or if you are just reading so quickly that you leap to some conclusion based on what you've heard previous people say and assume that I am saying similar things. Sorry if I have upset you, I wont do it again. (To clarify - I didnt ask if you thought I was going to hell. I asked if you believe that God is going to lovingly torture me for eternity based on my beliefs)

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For the record, misunderstanding the Bible & not believing the Bible are two totally different things.

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I agree completely - if I am wrong about hell it's because I have misunderstood the bible, not because I dont believe it contains guidance from God.

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Also, I know several Christians from Australia & your 'interpretation varies based on geography' baloney, is well...just that...baloney. So that excuse doesn't hold water with me.

[/ QUOTE ]
It wasnt intended as an excuse. I thought it was self-evident that what is called christianity in the US was different to what is called christianity in europe, different again to what is called christianity here. If it's not self-evident to you well I guess one of us is wrong.

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I don't know what all of your 'beliefs' are Bunny...I'm afraid to ask. But, as I said, you & I have been over this before. Go back & look up that thread if you don't believe me. My stance hasn't changed. Jesus Christ is the only way to slavation from hell. Period. What is so hard to understand about my that?

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That statement, alone, is almost completely meaningless. It is just the INTERPRETATION of that phrase, that YOU add, based on YOUR biases and understanding, that gives it any meaning. The only way to Heaven is through Jesus could honestly mean just about anything. You do realize we are talking about Scripture right, where words mean whatever you want them to mean? If "You will all be alive and kicking when Jesus comes back" somehow means Jesus will come in a couple thousand years and you will all be dead, SURELY "the only way to Heaven is through Jesus" is pretty labile?

[bunny]

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Jesus Christ is the only way to slavation from hell. Period. What is so hard to understand about my that?

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It's hard to understand how an all-loving God would torture someone for eternity because of their beliefs.

[Nielsio]

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I believe in god but not in hell

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Can you elaborate? Q3 & Q4

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I dont know if it's useful, I've been down this road with you before - it seems to involve lots of unrelated questions with the odd 'that is not a knowledge statement' thrown in. I dont understand the way you use words, so am not confident we're going to have much of a fruitful discussion. Nonetheless...

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Q3. What is a 'god'? Please define what it is and how it works.

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By God I mean the intelligent creator of the universe with no physical or temporal existence, able to do everything it is possible to do and able to know everything it is possible to know.

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So you mean like deism? Creating the universe, setting the thing in motion, but afterwards it evolves as it does. Because if you have no physical or temporal existence, then you are not part of this universe and can't (inter)act in any way.

Are you open to the concept of the universe being created through natural, non-intelligent, process?

I also have another problem with your idea. I can only conceive of intelligence with having a nervous system or some kind of mechanism that exists. Existing outside of this universe is not a meaninful concept to me. It is what the concept 'existing' actually means.


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Q4. How do you know?

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I dont claim knowledge of god - I have a belief (which I dont regard as a choice but rather a discovery about myself). The only evidence for that belief is a subjective experience which seems to me to be communing or sharing a moment with someone else - the obvious physicalist explanations dont seem "right" to me, but I accept a high probability that I am wrong.

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Can you explain how this experience leads you to what you described above. I don't see the relationship.

[bunny]

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So you mean like deism? Creating the universe, setting the thing in motion, but afterwards it evolves as it does. Because if you have no physical or temporal existence, then you are not part of this universe and can't (inter)act in any way.

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I think this is begging the question. If there is any meaning to something existing non-physically it may be possible for it to interact with the physical universe.

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Are you open to the concept of the universe being created through natural, non-intelligent, process?

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Certainly - I'd even go so far as to say I'd prefer it.

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I also have another problem with your idea. I can only conceive of intelligence with having a nervous system or some kind of mechanism that exists. Existing outside of this universe is not a meaninful concept to me. It is what the concept 'existing' actually means.

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I think there are non-physical entities as well and when I talk of existing I mean within the 'universe of discourse' made up of the physical universe but including a non-physical part as well. Some of the things I think 'exist' with no physical components are the number pi, algebraic groups, the law of modus ponens, the subjective component of thought and god.

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Q4. How do you know?

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I dont claim knowledge of god - I have a belief (which I dont regard as a choice but rather a discovery about myself). The only evidence for that belief is a subjective experience which seems to me to be communing or sharing a moment with someone else - the obvious physicalist explanations dont seem "right" to me, but I accept a high probability that I am wrong.

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Can you explain how this experience leads you to what you described above. I don't see the relationship.

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Not really - I find it as hard to explain as what it feels like to see blue.

[Nielsio]

Bunny,


'non-physical entity' is a contradictio in terminis.

'non-physical interaction' is also a contradictio in terminis.


Both of these sentences lack logical meaning, are thus not knowledge, and so do not answer Q3.