My Christianity: Free Will - Page 11

tame_deuces · #**101** 09-28-2007, 06:06 PM

But why should anyone believe _your_ view over (some of the) theistic satanists who claim satan tried to liberate man, and view satan as a good being, listing several 'good traits' to be associated with being one of his true followers.

Both arguments would seem to hold exactly the same value from a non-theist standpoint.

Mempho · #**102** 09-28-2007, 08:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]

But why should anyone believe _your_ view over (some of the) theistic satanists who claim satan tried to liberate man, and view satan as a good being, listing several 'good traits' to be associated with being one of his true followers.

Both arguments would seem to hold exactly the same value from a non-theist standpoint.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have a valid question. I'm going to dinner and I'll answer it later.

Hopey · #**103** 09-28-2007, 11:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You forgot to mention that this worldview must be POSSIBLE, and therefore somehow legitimate. Its basically just really low standards. Instead of trying to find out what is probable, lets just rest on our laurels at possible. No matter how unlikely. "Prove it wrong" will be our watchword and we will be warm and snug.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to mention that if you do "prove it wrong", Mempho will argue that Satan fabricated the evidence.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you've been paying attention, this is hardly the line of reasoning that I've been using.

[/ QUOTE ]

You didn't in *this* thread, but you certainly pulled out the 'satan as trickster' trump card in a previous thread about evolution.

Hopey · #**104** 09-28-2007, 11:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

You're basically saying that we should accept that anything anyone ever proposes, about anything, is true , since contradiction is insufficient.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would also add this:

You are unable to prove that a contradiction exists. That means that it is not a fact. It is, therefore, opinion. An opinion is often cited as a belief.

If you wish to explain away the existence of God through logic, you are welcome to attempt to do so. You will stump a lot of people and some will agree even agree with you. That does not change that its provability.

Further, in the process of explaining away God and celebrating the triumph of one's own intellect, one ends up devaluing one's self to an amalgamation of atomic particles.

Why would people do this to themselves?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Because some people prefer to search for the truth about our existence rather than blindly accepting some idealistic view of our importance in the universe.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are still blindly accepting the opinion this is a contradiction. It can not be proven and it is, therefore, not a fact.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gee, you're so deep.

Mempho · #**105** 09-29-2007, 09:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You forgot to mention that this worldview must be POSSIBLE, and therefore somehow legitimate. Its basically just really low standards. Instead of trying to find out what is probable, lets just rest on our laurels at possible. No matter how unlikely. "Prove it wrong" will be our watchword and we will be warm and snug.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to mention that if you do "prove it wrong", Mempho will argue that Satan fabricated the evidence.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you've been paying attention, this is hardly the line of reasoning that I've been using.

[/ QUOTE ]

You didn't in *this* thread, but you certainly pulled out the 'satan as trickster' trump card in a previous thread about evolution.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was merely explaining Christian thought on the issue. I wasn't trying to represent it as reality. It was more of an insight into the Christian mind.

vhawk01 · #**106** 09-29-2007, 09:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You forgot to mention that this worldview must be POSSIBLE, and therefore somehow legitimate. Its basically just really low standards. Instead of trying to find out what is probable, lets just rest on our laurels at possible. No matter how unlikely. "Prove it wrong" will be our watchword and we will be warm and snug.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to mention that if you do "prove it wrong", Mempho will argue that Satan fabricated the evidence.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you've been paying attention, this is hardly the line of reasoning that I've been using.

[/ QUOTE ]

You didn't in *this* thread, but you certainly pulled out the 'satan as trickster' trump card in a previous thread about evolution.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was merely explaining Christian thought on the issue. I wasn't trying to represent it as reality. It was more of an insight into the Christian mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unintentional humor scale: 7.5

Mempho · #**107** 09-29-2007, 10:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]

But why should anyone believe _your_ view over (some of the) theistic satanists who claim satan tried to liberate man, and view satan as a good being, listing several 'good traits' to be associated with being one of his true followers.

Both arguments would seem to hold exactly the same value from a non-theist standpoint.

[/ QUOTE ]

Problem #1: Wasn't Lucifer created by God? If so, how is he going to overthrow God?

Problem #2: Lucifer supposedly embraces freedom. If that freedom is to lie, steal, kill, etc., then what kind of freedom are you being offered? How could it be any better than this life?

Problem #3: If God is love, truth, light, etc., and Luciferianism is "the vacuum" of everything else, then surely even bondage in heaven is better than ultimate freedom in hell.

Problem #4: If the freedom Lucifer offers doesn't include the freedom to give up your freedom in surrender to God, then it really isn't freedom at all, is it?

tame_deuces · #**108** 09-29-2007, 02:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

But why should anyone believe _your_ view over (some of the) theistic satanists who claim satan tried to liberate man, and view satan as a good being, listing several 'good traits' to be associated with being one of his true followers.

Both arguments would seem to hold exactly the same value from a non-theist standpoint.

[/ QUOTE ]

Problem #1: Wasn't Lucifer created by God? If so, how is he going to overthrow God?

Problem #2: Lucifer supposedly embraces freedom. If that freedom is to lie, steal, kill, etc., then what kind of freedom are you being offered? How could it be any better than this life?

Problem #3: If God is love, truth, light, etc., and Luciferianism is "the vacuum" of everything else, then surely even bondage in heaven is better than ultimate freedom in hell.

Problem #4: If the freedom Lucifer offers doesn't include the freedom to give up your freedom in surrender to God, then it really isn't freedom at all, is it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, ok, I'm obviously having some slight difficulties discussing this as I am not a theistic satanist, and they also come in many variants. We will assume that when I speak now, I speak on behalf of the 'reasonable' ones.

1. As I understand it their 'satan' isn't always/only the lucifer of the bible. Neither do they always hold the bible to be true.

2. Yes, as I understand it basically the ideal is that freedom, knowledge amd truth are the greatest virtues, because love is a pretty good stuff but can be used to bind you. Or something.

3. They actually don't hold god to those ideals, more like a puppet master trying to trap humans in his image. It should also be noted that not all of these people believe in god at all.

4. I think you are more than free enough to do that too, it isn't a very preachy religion really. The idea is just that this 'satan' character prefers a partner to a servant.

But all that mumbo-jumbo aside, I'm not really looking for a theistic argument for why christianity is the better choice, because from a christian theist point of view, with the bible as his argument - christianity will always be the better choice - and there are no surprises there.

I am looking for some argument that holds some non-theistic value for why this one religion is best.

madnak · #**109** 09-29-2007, 04:23 PM

There really aren't any "true" satanists. It sounds like you're talking more about Set worshippers, who follow complex interpretations of an Egyptian God. Some of them like the shock value of calling themselves "satanists," but they're just neo pagans. Of course, there are a wide range of pagan thoughts and practices. I think you may also be inserting some of LaVey's (atheistic) Satanism into this.

tame_deuces · #**110** 09-29-2007, 04:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There really aren't any "true" satanists. It sounds like you're talking more about Set worshippers, who follow complex interpretations of an Egyptian God. Some of them like the shock value of calling themselves "satanists," but they're just neo pagans. Of course, there are a wide range of pagan thoughts and practices. I think you may also be inserting some of LaVey's (atheistic) Satanism into this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I only have an individual person's testimony to build what I'm saying here ofcourse, but as I understand the belief was based on the idea that most of the large religions share some set beliefs, and somewhere in this mass of legends lie their 'god' or whatever they call it.

And ofcourse I'm sure most of these guys are just a bunch of whackos.

I just used them to propose an argument with a little 'punch'. I mean, if we can't be convinced logically not to become 'satanists' then christianity seems to be in trouble.

*edit* And let me add, I _know_ it is an unfair argument, but that's actually the point - this is how theistic arguments feel like. You demand an argument of absolutes and then cry it can't exist an argument of absolutes, and then you propose one.