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#101
07-22-2007, 11:31 PM
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Re: faith, religion, spirituality
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I cant remember who, but some physician, gave the example of someone saying a teapot orbits the earth. [/ QUOTE ] This is the example given by the great philosopher and mathematician Bertrand Russel. He said that it is possible that there it a teapot (The Celestial Teapot) thats orbiting the sun out beyond the orbit of Pluto. Is it possible that such a teapot exists? sure. Is it likely? no. Is it rational to believe in such a teapot, and use that belief to make any real decisions about anything of importance here on earth? Absolutely not. Any rational person must, therefore, be an atheist with respect to the Celestial Teapot. The same line of thinking can be applied to God/gods. [/ QUOTE ] The analogy doesn't work all that well. There aren't people who go around claiming to have spoken with this teapot. And the messages and teachings of this supposed teapot haven't been followed by humanity for millenia. [/ QUOTE ] The analogy works perfectly well if you follow through with a hypothetical comparison to current beliefs about god. You're right that no one is seriously claiming to have spoken with the Teapot. My point is that if anyone does claim to have spoken with the Teapot, even if millions of people have believed in the Teapot for millennia, they would be completely irrational to base their actions/lives/morality on such a belief. The analogy applies, because the strength of evidence for god is the same as the evidence for the Celestial Teapot. [/ QUOTE ] What about a Celestial waffle iron? I could get behind one of those, I think. 
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#102
07-23-2007, 12:08 AM
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Re: faith, religion, spirituality
I think almost everyone comes to a crossroads sometime in their life. They are presented with a very challenging situation (their loved one is sick, their own lives are riding on some event, etc.) and they either ask God for help or decide to just trust their own efforts.
If they ask for God's help and everything turns out okay by coincidence, they feel indebted and are likely to become religious. Likewise, if things turn out poorly by coincidence, some of them might also become religious, thinking that they were somehow being "punished" for being wicked. Those that don't ask for God's help will probably never mistake the coincidence (fortune/misfortune) for divine intervention and remain/become atheists. Just my two cents.
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#103
07-23-2007, 12:32 AM
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Re: faith, religion, spirituality
[ QUOTE ]
Atheism imo = a religion. [/ QUOTE ] You think I'm religious because I don't believe in Zeus? Or is it only a non-belief in the biblical God that equates atheism with religion in your opinion?
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#104
07-23-2007, 01:13 AM
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Re: faith, religion, spirituality
I leave for a while and all these stupid posts pop up. All I was asking for was a summary of what's important to each particular poster and why. The point was NOT to talk about the differences between strong and weak atheism, agnosticism, and what have you.
But since the thread has devolved in typical 2p2 fashion... [ QUOTE ] Upon recieving the pamphlet and note I would have kindly asked him to leave and not approach me again if he plans on continuing to advertise his religion to me. Its one thing to have a civil conversation with one another about beliefs but another thing altogether if pamphlets etc . are involved. [/ QUOTE ] I don't get this. What're you so afraid of? I was just getting on the train, not going anywhere, not doing anything at the time. Scott was a nice guy and fun to talk to. We discussed a variety of judeo-christian topics. So what if he handed me a pamphlet? I read it on the train and thought it was pretty interesting. That pamphlet is probably responsible for this thread. I didn't lose anything talking to Scott except about 3 pages in my book.
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#105
07-23-2007, 01:48 AM
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Re: faith, religion, spirituality
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] the big bang needed something to creat it, then whatever created it needed something to create it. [/ QUOTE ] this is not true. its quite possible that the big bang simply follows as an inevitability from the laws of physics. The matter is still up for debate, so I suppose that a person could still see God in the big bang and still be logical. So far, science has found ways to logically explain every phenomena of matter and energy. There is nothing we have seen on earth that defies the laws of physics. We have worked out the laws of nature o a degree of accuracy that nearly defies description. We can explain motion of the stars and planets, the behavior of matter on a massive scale, the behavior of matter on a tiny scale. We can explain how the sun burns, and how black holes form. We can explain the origin and development of all the complexity and diversity of life. We can explain all these things without resorting to God to gloss over the gaps in our knowledge. What is left in the universe that we need God to explain? nothing. -maybe- the big bang. But like I said, many physicists now think that the big bang can be explained with basic quantum physics. If you want to call that God, then thats fine. Ive got no problem with referring to a simple event, describable by math and physics as God. Or you say "where did the laws of physics come from? there must but a superpowerful being up there that decided on the the laws of nature. So lets call that God." But if you do that, then you've divested from the word God all the things about it that you cherish: his omnipotence, his concern for human affairs, his mystery. Once you take that leap, God isn't mysterious or powerful anymore, just a mundane event. I don't accept this definition of God. For me, God is either a supreme being, all knowing and all powerful, or he is just a phenomena we can explain with science, a piece of mathematics. There are no limits to what humanity can learn and understand, even if that understanding is beyond the reach of the average person, even if is beyond us for a thousand generations; those that claim that there is something that is beyond comprehension or explanation for all time are merely placing a self imposed restriction on their own minds, and calling it God. [/ QUOTE ] k, please dont quote out of context anymore. I was giving an example that Ive heard time and again for why there has to be a god. In my post I explained why this is not so, so Im not sure why you quoted me and then explained what I had already said in regards to it.
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#108
07-23-2007, 01:36 PM
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Re: faith, religion, spirituality
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] because there has to be a central point from where everything came from that defies physics (future, present of past), and that is god. [/ QUOTE ] more gibberish. [/ QUOTE ] prove it. oh wait you cant, you are probably too busy jerking off to dawkins. hence you have faith in something that you cant quantify.....like a lot of religious people. people like sephus and his know it all two word douche bag posts make it not even worth trying to have a discussion. All you 20 something douches, when on your deathbed will be cowering and praying your asses off just like everyone else. lose the smugness until you can start proving things. [/ QUOTE ] It's kind of sad that people took their time to respond intelligently to your questions but then you just come back to this lazy pile of tripe when you get confused (which is like every post now from what I can tell).
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#110
07-24-2007, 10:38 AM
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Re: faith, religion, spirituality
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for those of you that believe in god but so not belong to religion, how many of you believe in the concept of heaven/hell? [/ QUOTE ] good constructive prompt. we need more of this.
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