What's so bad about amnesty?

[ShakeZula06]

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1) They're equivalent.

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Me saying X is wrong isn't the same as asking what right there is to do X.
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FYP.

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Good job. At this rate you'll never have to address anyone's arguments.

[cpk]

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Me saying X is wrong isn't the same as asking what right there is to do X.

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Now who's being a nit?

[BCPVP]

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"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

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NH! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ShakeZula06]

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Me saying X is wrong isn't the same as asking what right there is to do X.

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Now who's being a nit?

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Good job. At this rate you'll never have to address anyone's arguments.

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[PLOlover]

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i think what people are forgetting here is that there's absolutely no way to actually remove the 12 million illegals (or whatever the estimated number is). it's ridiculous to think otherwise.

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so you're saying that something that was done in the 50's cannot be done today? why not?

[PLOlover]

as an aside, if the amnesty bill goes through, can I get a second ID ?

[cpk]

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Me saying X is wrong isn't the same as asking what right there is to do X.

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Now who's being a nit?

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Good job. At this rate you'll never have to address anyone's arguments.

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How many times do I have to say that it was a good question, one that I don't know how to answer?

[John Kilduff]

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Actually, America was more a country of Anglo settlers than of immigrants. Immigrants were welcome, and welcome to assimilate, but it was the settlers first and foremost who built America and who laid the foundations (legal and physical) for the future America. The settlers were overwhelmingly of Anglo descent and brought with them certain beliefs, traditions and principles. Western culture did not evolve in a vacuum: its principles are based on Greek law and philosophy, English common law, European scientific achievements, and philosophical base of the Renaissance and Enlightenment. The USA did not draw upon Chinese philosophy, Islamic jurisprudence, and the Mexican government model in order to form the Constitution. Any random immigrant from anywhere in the world will probably not share the Western values and beliefs simply because they have not been raised in our culture. To ignore this is to deny the reality of culture and philosophy and the existence of diverse value systems.

Maybe anyone (almost) can assimilate. That doesn't mean most will, especially if they come from a very different culture.

While Americans are bending over backwards to avoid even the appearance of partiality or race-preference, some immigrant groups are forthrightly and proudly proclaiming their intent to do things [/i]for their own group exclusively[/i] or proclaiming a primary allegiance other than to America. Many Mexican immigrants see their primary allegiance to Mexico and to Mexicans, not to the USA. Many Islamic immigrants see their primary allegiance to the umma, or Islamic worldwide community, and many want to see Shari'a over the U.S. Constitution. THIS IS NOT WHAT THE FOUNDERS INTENDED NOR, DO I BELIEVE, IS IT WHAT THE VERSE YOU QUOTED STANDS FOR.

America is intended to be open to those who intend to become Americans, not to those who intend to bring their tribalistic preferences to America's shores and to further their tribalistic aims here, or who will attempt to remodel the basic structure and function, and political and even legal system, of America in the model of their homelands.

Western culture is worth preserving and that is worth some selectivity in determining who becomes an American. Would-be Americans should share American and Western values, as well as not constitute a major drain on the economic system (I'm well aware the issue of the economic pros and cons of low-skilled immigrants is open to much debate, and I believe there exist legitimate pro and con economic arguments on both sides).

I'm just trying to point out that there is more to America than the existence of a mere economic system. There is a lengthy cultural and philosophical tradition and foundation. Opening the floodgates to unlimited, non-selective immigration may easily bring a huge assault on American and Western values right here in America, by virtue of the numerical ascendancy of those who hold other values, even values which are deeply antithetical to our own Western liberal values.

This is the Achilles Heel in the ACist or Libertarian position of open borders. To maintain a country with liberal values written into law, with equality of rights and of sexes, and freedom of belief and speech written into law, the majority of the populace must also favor those values. If the majority of America becomes populated by those who do not share such values of freedom and equality, the laws will eventually be changed in the opposite direction. Therefore it is imperative that to maintain a free state, also maintained is a majority population that favors a free state. We have seen how the freedoms of America have been bastardized and chiseled away at by craven politicians and legislators, and how an uninformed or apathetic populace has allowed this to take place. How much more will our freedoms be eroded by allowing America to become ever more populated by those from foreign cultures which do not even share our basic values and philosophies? Food for thought, and thanks for reading as I've got to go out.

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Interesting post, but I disagree. How is the large number of Mexicans coming into the US today different from the large waves of Irish and Italians in the past? These groups also took a few generations to become American and now they are a vital part of the country. You make it sound like Mexicans have such different values but their viewpoints on government and religon are similar to many americans.

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Merxican culture isn't as different from American culture as is Islamic culture, but Mexican culture still is not as close to American culture as are the Italian and Irish cultures. I do agree that there are probably many Americans who share some major views with Mexicans. Some political commentators (and a Congressman?) have recently suggested that a moratorium on immigration be enacted for a while, with the purpose of focusing on the assimilation of existing immigrants for a few decades.

[John Kilduff]

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...and yet millions of unskilled, poorly educated people who can't cut it at home, are allowed to flood in through the border. Taking on such human trash is not how you build a great or diverse country..

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Yes it is. If it's a free country. It's also how we built this one.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

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Actually, America was more a country of Anglo settlers than of immigrants. Immigrants were welcome, and welcome to assimilate, but it was the settlers first and foremost who built America and who laid the foundations (legal and physical) for the future America. The settlers were overwhelmingly of Anglo descent and brought with them certain beliefs, traditions and principles. Western culture did not evolve in a vacuum: its principles are based on Greek law and philosophy, English common law, European scientific achievements, and philosophical base of the Renaissance and Enlightenment. The USA did not draw upon Chinese philosophy, Islamic jurisprudence, and the Mexican government model in order to form the Constitution. Any random immigrant from anywhere in the world will probably not share the Western values and beliefs simply because they have not been raised in our culture. To ignore this is to deny the reality of culture and philosophy and the existence of diverse value systems.

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So what? Maybe I want to be exposed to a variety of different ideas and values. Maybe my families values sucked and I have met some illegal immigrants whose values not only blow the doors off of my family of origins values, but blow away the average americans values as well. I think we should choose from the best and not stagnate with what we are used to.

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Maybe anyone (almost) can assimilate. That doesn't mean most will, especially if they come from a very different culture.

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So what? What do you want to force other people to be like you for? If your way is so special why do you need to force it? If someone doesn't learn to act and think like you they are somehow doing something wrong?


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While Americans are bending over backwards to avoid even the appearance of partiality or race-preference, some immigrant groups are forthrightly and proudly proclaiming their intent to do things [/i]for their own group exclusively[/i] or proclaiming a primary allegiance other than to America.

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That is true for some americans. Others put sheets on their heads and talk all sorts of [censored]. Others are not so outwardly bigoted but they do not socialize with people that are different colors than them, or come from different countries than them. They don't even try to get to know any 'illegal immigrants' but seem to be experts on them. PUt them in a room full of brown people in a social situation and they turn bright red and stutter like a four year old with a mouth full of marbles.


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Many Mexican immigrants see their primary allegiance to Mexico and to Mexicans, not to the USA. Many Islamic immigrants see their primary allegiance to the umma, or Islamic worldwide community, and many want to see Shari'a over the U.S. Constitution. THIS IS NOT WHAT THE FOUNDERS INTENDED NOR, DO I BELIEVE, IS IT WHAT THE VERSE YOU QUOTED STANDS FOR.

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I DO NOT FRIGGIN CARE. LOTS OF PEOPLE BELIEVE LOTS OF DUMB [censored], MANY OF THOSE PEOPLE WERE BORN HERE. IN CASE YOU HAVE NOT NOTICED, A GREAT MANY OF THEM ARE A-S-S HOLES. There is NOTHING SPECIAL ABOUT BEING BORN IN THE MIDDLE OF NORTH AMERICA. THEY LIED TO YOU IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS. THEY BRAINWASHED YOU IN HAVING YOU SALUTE THE FLAG EVERY DAY, IT WAS CULT INDOCTRINATION ACTIVITY.


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America is intended to be open to those who intend to become Americans, not to those who intend to bring their tribalistic preferences to America's shores and to further their tribalistic aims here, or who will attempt to remodel the basic structure and function, and political and even legal system, of America in the model of their homelands.

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America is not homogeneous. It is less and less so every day. The sooner you get used to it the better off you will be. Dinasours became extinct and so will people who adheare to cultural rigidity. I want the freedome to choose. I want people from all over the world to come here and I want to meet them and interact with them. It enriches my life. I can even walk up to brown and black people on the street and start talking to them. I can go to a party filled with brown people or black people and interact with them. That is normal and a good skill to have.


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Western culture is worth preserving and that is worth some selectivity in determining who becomes an American.

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[censored]. I disagree. I am not convinced. Convince me. Let me hear your arguments. Mind you, I am not against you preserving anything you wish to preserve with anyone who voluntarilly agrees to perserve it with you. I support your right to choose to do that. When it comes to what I want, don't TELL ME, ASK ME.


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Would-be Americans should share American and Western values,

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I want to be exposed to a bunch of different views/values and I want to choose from them as I see fit for myself and my offspring. I do not need you to socially engeneer society for me, thank you very much.




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as well as not constitute a major drain on the economic system (I'm well aware the issue of the economic pros and cons of low-skilled immigrants is open to much debate, and I believe there exist legitimate pro and con economic arguments on both sides).

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This has nothing to do with brown people or mexican people and everything to do with those jackasses in Washington D.C. who continue to weave rules and regulations and subsidy programs (and the fun bureaurocracy that goes along with them). If your against welfare get rid of the republicrats.



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I'm just trying to point out that there is more to America than the existence of a mere economic system. There is a lengthy cultural and philosophical tradition and foundation.

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Good. Enjoy it. I might want more choices on my menu. And as a reminder, there are a ton of [censored] in this country. I can introduce you to some world class [censored] who were born here if you have not met enought already.

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I think maybe we're talking past each other, and that you may be thinking I mean one thing by "American values" or "Western values", when actually I mean something else. By "American values" I mean belief in such things as free speech, the Bill of Rights, keeping government out of religion, equality of all before the law, and probably some lesser traditional values as well. By "Western values" I mean belief in democratic representation, the equality of all before the law, and similar things, as well as probably some lesser traditional values. Many immigrants from cultures where the above values are not highly held, do not share those values. I don't see a positive in importing someone who doesn't believe in free speech or in equality of all before the law, who hold values diametrically opposed to our own values (and opposed to YOUR own values as well, unless I am sorely mistaken and you actually favor racial or religious supremacy and the prevention of free speech, etc). That is what I mean when I say Western culture and American culture have worth and are worth preserving.

Do you prefer a reduced or expanded role for government, a modest role or Very Big Brother? Then you had better not wish to see imported unlimited millions of people from a culture that traditionally favors very big government, for if they come here in unlimited quantities, sure as shot and shinola, they will be a force agitating in favor of the Big Brother you would rather not have leaning over your shoulder all the time.

By the way, don't confuse Brazilian and Mexican cultures as they are quite different. Five million more Brazilians in the USA might be a plus but that doesn't mean that fifteen million more Mexicans in the USA would be a plus.