Going All In Before The Flop....

[omaha]

I think i asked a number of questions that you have totally ignored in your reply

according to 2dimes, the hands you listed have aa winning 56.1% of the time, so a little bit better than a coin flip

i) Is staying at 10k instead of a 56% chance of going to 40k really a sensible thing to do? Can you understand how, if you drop the aa pf, then you have effectively lost 30k?

ii) what does your poker coach think of your concepts of dumping aa in this scenario. Methinks he disapproves, and you are venting your frustrations out on us

Thirdly, and this is a new one, consider the geometric progression of tourneys. You do not need to survive, because you need to stay ahead of the increasing blinds. Lets say you are at a table of massively stacked drunken donkeys. You take your 10k ace high flush against a donkeys 5 high flush and double up. THen you double up again with a nut straight vs a non nut straight. Then, you double up with a big boat vs a small boat.

SO, your 10k has gone to 20, then to 40, and then to 80

But, had you gambooled on the aa and won, you would have had 80, which went to 160, which then became 360k

Now, MUBSman, can you see where the extra 280k chips came from? You may have thought you won them against the three donkeys (which is also true), but it was winning with the aa that gave you the ammunition to win big later.

Lastly, did you realise that your logical sense of structuring an argument is along very similar lines of premenstrual women? Absolutely no logic, reasoning, or accountability for your actions.

Personally i dont give a fuccknratsarsehole if you are going to tunica at all. Once you get your head around what you should be doing with aa pf, you will be going a lot more!

[jcm4ccc]

I usually look at the number of replies when deciding whether to read a thread -- +EV in terms of time and energy. I may have to rethink that strategy. Or am I just being results oriented?

[binions]

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I think i asked a number of questions that you have totally ignored in your reply

according to 2dimes, the hands you listed have aa winning 56.1% of the time, so a little bit better than a coin flip

i) Is staying at 10k instead of a 56% chance of going to 40k really a sensible thing to do? Can you understand how, if you drop the aa pf, then you have effectively lost 30k?



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By folding preflop, you lose 56% of 30K, or 16.8K Chip EV.

You lose 30K when you would have won, but you'd be sent to the rail 44%.

Personally, if given a coinflip to quadruple up early in the WSOP main event, most good players take it every time.

Why? Because there is no bad outcome. They either have 40K in chips or they get to play in the juicy the side games.

After all, there is an opportunity cost to playing in a tournament that takes several days to reach the money.

[Fiksdal]

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I usually look at the number of replies when deciding whether to read a thread -- +EV in terms of time and energy. I may have to rethink that strategy.

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lol nh

[nath]

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I have already done so but since you are not reading all my post I will do it again...first I posted the example form Tom McEvoy and TJ Cloutier from their book Championship Hold'em.

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It is widely agreed that most of the advice in this book is poor and weak-tight, and that T.J. probably doesn't even follow it. But I'll let that slide, temporarily.

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I happen to agree that if you are on the button and there are 3 all in calls before the flop why risk the tournament on a coin flip by calling an all in at that point.

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Because it's not a "coin flip". You quadruple up if you win. If someone offered to flip a coin with you and offered to pay you 3:1 if you won, would you pass because it was the last dollar in your wallet? (Not to your name, in your wallet.)
Put another way, are you better than 50% to quadruple your starting stack in every tournament you enter? I doubt it very much.

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So far people have agreed that if you keep going all in with AA eventually you will lose. So, why do it when you don't have much to gain, why not wait until you have a lot to gain.

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Because there are no promises as to when and where you will be dealt AA or any other premium hands, so you should maximize the profit you make on them WHENEVER that opportunity arises.
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For example, The first hand you are dealt AA. The tournament starts you off with 1500 in chips, if I were to raise 500 and get a call. I see the flop. If its a favorable I could still double up my chips with less risk. If it is a poor flop like 3 flush, 3 connecting cards I can fold. Lets say it is a dangerous flop and I get to check it down to the river and win 500. By going all in risking my tournament for just a 1000 more chips doesn't make sense...doubling up now does not have the same impact as doubling up later in the tournament when lets say I go all in and can make 100,0000.

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You have to get to "later in the tournament" first, and you don't get there by playing your hands weakly and profiting as little as possible.

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I would much rather take the risk later then at the beginning of the tournament when there is not much reward for risking my tournament life.

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Your fear of "risking your tournament life" that you state repeatedly is horrible, and I prey on people like you in tournaments.

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I am not going to go all in 20 times before the flop to find out I will be Knocked out...at this point I am almost guaranteed to get knocked out. Because even if I am the favorite, if I do go in 20 times as the favorite pre flop I will be knocked out unless I am extremely lucky, I thought Poker was a game of skill, so I would rather see the flop, will I still get bad beat sometimes, yes, but a lot less times.

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If you're getting bad beat less often, it's because you're not getting your money in good as often as you should be. And by the way, if you go all-in, but if, like me, you actually maximize what you make on your hands early, you usually have the OTHER people covered, so you AREN'T going all in.

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Again guys I am not dumb, I will push all in with AA 95% of the time if I have to and the reward is big enough....just not sure if I would do it on the first hand of a tournament that's all.

[/ QUOTE ]
Look, just read this article. Your way of thinking has long been accepted as outdated and weak, and not the way to be a consistent winner at tournaments, and it is a topic that has been covered on these forums many, many times. I don't care if Jesus Christ, Doyle Brunson, and The Great Gazoo got together and decided to back you in tournaments from here to eternity, your thinking is still really wrong.

And you're talking to a guy who lost a 30,000 chip pot on day one of the WSOP by getting all-in preflop with AA. No regrets.

[adanthar]

blah blah blah blah chow meow why does this thread have posts in it

[seke2]

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I usually look at the number of replies when deciding whether to read a thread -- +EV in terms of time and energy. I may have to rethink that strategy.

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lol nh

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Your analysis is oversimplified, jcm.

Proper post-reading decision making should invove a combinaion of factors. Number of posts is important, but poster name and post title are other key factors you should use in that decision. Clearly, you suck at deciding to read posts, and need to work more on that aspect of your message board usage. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[nath]

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blah blah blah blah chow meow why does this thread have posts in it

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the same reason all the FGators posts do

I JUST CAN'T HELP MYSELF

[adanthar]

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blah blah blah blah chow meow why does this thread have posts in it

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the same reason all the FGators posts do

I JUST CAN'T HELP MYSELF

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let it go nath

like aces preflop

[Beachman42]

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What value, its the first hand of a tournament...if you start off with 1500 chips and there are 500 people in the tournament you are only talking about a very small percentage of the 750,000 chips in play...those 1500 chips won't win you the tournament....so why take a chance on the first hand.....I can get 1500 chips easily without risking my all of mine.... if someone were to offer you an investment...one cost you $1500 and the other only $10 but you could make the same amount of money which would you do? I am telling you I can make the same 1500 in chips without having to risk all my chips in any tournament I am in. Now mid tournament I will risk chips on AA because the reward is bigger...and now it will actually make a difference when I win.

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Your poker genius is overwhelming and totally beyond most posters here at 2+2. Continuing your logic, folding a Royal Flush on the first hand would ensure your ultimate victory for that tourney. Can you see why?