what would it take to trade Tom Brady? - Page 11

Kneel B4 Zod · #**101** 10-04-2007, 11:36 AM

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lol @ manning being the third best

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God I hate when you make statements like this. It was just like your statement about the Redskins and Giants having "no chance" of being better than the Eagles.

Montana, Brady, and Manning are all great QBs. It shouldn't cause anyone to LOL no matter what order they're in, as a valid case could be made for any of the three. Some would even put Elway or Young above one or more of them. Marino and Favre belong in the discussion too.

You act as if people who disagree with you are not even remotely close to being right and that its not even worth discussing.

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Well, thats because putting Brady above Marino, Elway and Favre is sort of...not worth discussing. Its silly. Why don't you include Bradshaw?

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I think what's become silly is the argument that "Peyton >>>>>> Brady, just look at his DPAR, DVOA, TD's, LDO!!!" b/c for the first time Brady was receivers that are close to Harrison and Wayne, and now all those #'s look like Peytons.

it's a long season, with 12 more games to go, but if things continue like this, then the question is far, far from silly.

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Chicken or the egg though. Are the receivers good b/c of the QB, or vice versa? Randy Moss has been good with Culpepper and now Brady. We have no idea how good Marvin and Wayne would be without Peyton. I bet there would be a decline if Peyton had the same receivers Tom had last year but it would be impossible to really compare.

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sure, they all work together. good players make other good players look better; but they don't make them actually better.

I think the larger point is that football is a team game, and - as I think we'll see this year - it's folly to use stats as the sole argument in determining greatness. b/c other stuff matters, and matters a lot - your other offensive weapons, your line, where you play your games, your defense, etc. the advanced metrics silence some of this noise, but not nearly all of it.

TheNoodleMan · #**102** 10-04-2007, 11:37 AM

I feel like a lot of the old pats WRs are getting an unfair rap. Yeah they weren't Harrison/Wayne or Moss but a bunch of them were solid players that have been getting disrespected.

Branch, Givens, Patten and Brown all deserve a lot more credit for their contributions to some very good teams.

Kneel B4 Zod · #**103** 10-04-2007, 11:46 AM

Troy Brown made a ton of catches, but was basically a possession/ #3 type. A Wes Welker type.

Branch was good, but again, more of a #2 type. Seattle was silly to give us a #1 for him.

Patten and Givens have done nothing since leaving the Pats.

Randy Moss and Stallworth are far, far closer to Marvin and Reggie than anything Brady has ever had.

TheNoodleMan · #**104** 10-04-2007, 11:52 AM

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Troy Brown made a ton of catches, but was basically a possession/ #3 type. A Wes Welker type.

Branch was good, but again, more of a #2 type. Seattle was silly to give us a #1 for him.

Patten and Givens have done nothing since leaving the Pats.

Randy Moss and Stallworth are far, far closer to Marvin and Reggie than anything Brady has ever had.

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Patten and Givens have both been hurt constantly since they left NE. Neither one has played anything even remotely resembling a full season since. That points to a solid decision by NE to let them walk, but it doesn't mean they weren't solid WRs when they were there.

I just feel like they are getting a bad rap in the whole "ZOMG! look at what happens now that Brady has WRs that don't totally suck!" talk.

Kneel B4 Zod · #**105** 10-04-2007, 11:58 AM

Patten has been healthy enough to play in 17 games since leaving NE, and has caught 28 passes for 322 yards (thats basically 1 whole season).

David Givens played in 5 games last year, and had 8 catches for 104 yards.

total TD's since leaving NE for these two guys, in 22 games: 0

even when healthy, they have done very little. (and I'm sure a lot of that has to do with the downgrade from Tom Brady to current QB)

TheNoodleMan · #**106** 10-04-2007, 12:14 PM

Some of it is definitely downgrade at QB, some of it is injury, some of it is age. I'm not saying they are close to Moss/Welker, I'm saying they are getting unfairly slighted for their contributions to the SB runs.

TalkingDonkey · #**107** 10-04-2007, 12:26 PM

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Ridiculous notion, but my honest answer to OP for what I think it would take to get Brady:

Brian Urlacher
Lance Briggs
Devin Hester
Adewale Ogunleye
John Tait
Rex Grossman
7 or 8 1st round draft picks
7 or 8 2nd round draft picks

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This might be what it takes for the Pats to part ways with Brady, but if you think this is his true worth you're out of your mind.

Vagos · #**108** 10-04-2007, 12:34 PM

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Chicken or the egg though. Are the recievers good b/c of the QB, or vice versa? Randy Moss has been good with Culpepper and now Brady. We have no idea how good Marvin and Wayne would be without Peyton. I bet there would be a decline if Peyton had the same receivers Tom had last year but it would be impossible to really compare.

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I think this is a good point, with a good example being TJ Houshmanzadeh. Most people don't seem to be aware that TJ is 30 years old, and was a 7th round draft pick. He was an absolute nobody his first 3 years in the league and then he just happen to become a superstar when Carson Palmer came to town. But you'll often hear that "Palmer has TJ" not "TJ has Palmer". However, I think it's clear that very good QB's can help make receivers look much better than they would on a lot of other teams.

Marvin Harrison doesn't have the same speed he used to and would probably be putting up very marginal numbers (think Jerry Rice in 1999-2000) with a lot of other teams. But when he has Peyton putting it in the numbers on 9/10 throws, it makes him look like 25 year old Marvin and not 35 year old Marvin.

capone0 · #**109** 10-04-2007, 12:46 PM

Are we really comparing Stallworth to Wayne? Stallworth is a really bad Reggie. Moss is a super upgrade on anything they've ever had. I don't think too much about Stallworth. I think he is injury riddled and pretty overrated.

TheNoodleMan · #**110** 10-04-2007, 12:52 PM

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Chicken or the egg though. Are the recievers good b/c of the QB, or vice versa? Randy Moss has been good with Culpepper and now Brady. We have no idea how good Marvin and Wayne would be without Peyton. I bet there would be a decline if Peyton had the same receivers Tom had last year but it would be impossible to really compare.

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I think this is a good point, with a good example being TJ Houshmanzadeh. Most people don't seem to be aware that TJ is 30 years old, and was a 7th round draft pick. He was an absolute nobody his first 3 years in the league and then he just happen to become a superstar when Carson Palmer came to town. But you'll often hear that "Palmer has TJ" not "TJ has Palmer". However, I think it's clear that very good QB's can help make receivers look much better than they would on a lot of other teams.

Marvin Harrison doesn't have the same speed he used to and would probably be putting up very marginal numbers (think Jerry Rice in 1999-2000) with a lot of other teams. But when he has Peyton putting it in the numbers on 9/10 throws, it makes him look like 25 year old Marvin and not 35 year old Marvin.

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You underestimate Marvin Harrison greatly. He would put up sick numbers anywhere. I have yet to see any evidence that he has lost any speed.

Also, "Peyton putting it in the numbers on 9/10 throws" is an absurd statement. No QB throws with that kind of accuracy.