Yanks offer job to Girardi

[CharlieDontSurf]

With a manager, you never know for sure. Granted, in Joe Girardi's one year as a manager, he was Manager of the Year. But that was just one year, and anyway there's a big difference between managing one of the worst National League teams and managing one of the best American League teams. Or there might be.

But honestly, is there anything at all to not like about Girardi? From Tyler Kepner's piece in the Times on Tuesday:

Girardi has an engineering degree from Northwestern, and he has a reputation for being meticulously prepared and open to new ideas. He was regarded as a leader when he played, and his teammates always knew he wanted to manage.

"Joe was one of those guys that was always a good listener -- taking it in, like all catchers do, but taking it deeper and understanding the game more than your normal catcher," the former Yankees reliever Jeff Nelson said in a telephone interview.

"Joe had aspirations of becoming a manager, and he paid attention a lot more than the majority of other guys."

I got the impression this year that Girardi, after leaving the Marlins, simply decided that when he managed again, he would manage the Yankees. He could have managed some other team in 2007, but instead he took a part-time job as a TV broadcaster for the Yankees. This accomplished two things. It kept him mostly unemployed, and it exposed his acumen to anybody in New York -- or Tampa, Fla. -- who happened to be watching the Yankees on TV.

While all this talk about the three managerial candidates was going on, I kept asking myself, "How could they even think of hiring anybody but Girardi? He's clearly the best man for the job. He's the smartest, he's the youngest, and he's been the most successful."

My guess is that general manager Brian Cashman agreed with me all the while, and that the entire "process" was mostly for show.

Depending on what the Yankees do this winter, next season might be sort of a down year for the organization as they try to sort out their young pitchers. But if the Steinbrothers are patient with Girardi, I believe he'll be the franchise's greatest manager since Casey Stengel.
-Neyer

[TMTTR]

OK. Last response to the Girardi haters about the year with the Marlins:

(1) Girardi did not curse at his owner during that game. The worst he may have said is "Shut up."

(2) Girardi did not choke a player in the dugout.

(3) When Girardi was hired, the Marlins had a $60 million payroll. Within weeks, that was a $15 million payroll.

(4) Girardi wanted to protect the young pitchers and bring them up slowly. He was overruled by management.

(5) In general, the players respected Girardi and there are even rumors that some of them were ready to walk out (not go on a road trip) if he was fired after the fight with Loria.

(6) The Marlins did far better than anyone expected in 2006. That was not all because of Girardi, but he did nurtured the young players; he did not abuse them. The pythagorean winning percentage is being misused repeatedly to conclude that the Marlins underperformed. The deviation from that winning percentage is not significant and can be accounted for by many factors that bear no weight on Girardi's performance.

(7) And the Josh Johnson game. Probably a mistake, but it was in the heat of the race for the wild card and Johnson wanted to go back in. He stayed warm by playing catch in the cage under the stadium. It is also noteworthy that the opposing pitcher also stayed in the game. While the causation is hard to track, it is unlikely that the soreness he felt that day led to his need for Tommy John surgery.

(8) Finally, what happened in Florida in 2006 is likely to be a very poor predictor of how the Yankees will do with Girardi in 2008. The teams are very different at every level.

Oh -- and I accept Vyse's concession as he has already admitted being "raped" in this thread -- although I find his repeated use of that word somewhat juvenile and troubling.

Go Yankees.

Later.

[mo42nyy]

Girardis whole rotation in Florida was young pitchers. If you want to lessen their workload who exactly is supposed to pick up the slack? Its a lot easier to give hughes extra time to recover when you have Wang and pettite anchoring your rotation and you can add Clemens (who up until he got hurt was good although grosly overpaid for the most part)

As far as him cursing at Loria- good Loria is a piece of [censored].

Also DC I dont care what magic stats you use that you think will be exact indicators on how many games a team should win. They were a team with a 15 million dollar payroll that noone expected to do anything and they were 2 games out of the wild card with 2 weeks to go. Theres no way they would have been that close with almost any other manager in baseball.

As far as Josh Johnson- Giarardi absoltutly [censored] up. However since he isn't completly clueless when it comes to baseball strategy he will likely learn from his mistake as opposed to Torre who did the same dumb [censored] over and over for 10 years.

[Vyse]

[ QUOTE ]

Also DC I dont care what magic stats you use that you think will be exact indicators on how many games a team should win. They were a team with a 15 million dollar payroll that noone expected to do anything and they were 2 games out of the wild card with 2 weeks to go. Theres no way they would have been that close with almost any other manager in baseball.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so laughably bad, not that the rest of your post isn't -- this just stands out super obviously. Magical stats? HAHAHAHAHAHA. So Girardi magically made his players play better, right? HAHAHAHAHAHA.

[DesertCat]

[ QUOTE ]
OK. Last response to the Girardi haters about the year with the Marlins:

(1) Girardi did not curse at his owner during that game. The worst he may have said is "Shut up."

[/ QUOTE ]

It was widely reported that Girardi told Loria to STFU. Heyman said the story could not be true, and quoted Micheal Kay (Michael Kay!) as evidence Girardi never curses. Either way, my point was he's got some anger control issues that make him a questionable leader of young men. You don't tell your boss to STFU or even to just shut up in public.

[ QUOTE ]

(2) Girardi did not choke a player in the dugout.


[/ QUOTE ]

It was specifically reported Girardi dragged Scott Olsen the length of the dugout by the collar of his jersey. Olsen appears to be the kind of guy who might deserve that, but once more it's evidence of anger control issues with Girardi.

[ QUOTE ]

(3) When Girardi was hired, the Marlins had a $60 million payroll. Within weeks, that was a $15 million payroll.


[/ QUOTE ]

Once again, this is absolutely meaningless. That $15M payroll included some awesome major league hitters and pitchers who put up a team OPS+ of 105 and a team ERA+ of 99, easily enough raw performance for a competent manager to field a winning team.

[ QUOTE ]

(4) Girardi wanted to protect the young pitchers and bring them up slowly. He was overruled by management.


[/ QUOTE ]

Girardi didn't believe in the young pitchers, was angry he didn't have the veterans he thought he would have, and tried to bury the youngsters in the bullpen. He was over-ruled by management and management was clearly right. Management should have also forced him to use his swing men more often and brought up some more AAA pitchers to occasionally spell these guys.

[ QUOTE ]

(5) In general, the players respected Girardi and there are even rumors that some of them were ready to walk out (not go on a road trip) if he was fired after the fight with Loria.


[/ QUOTE ]

There are also rumours that many of the players hated Girardi and were happy to see him gone. Rumours are rumours.

[ QUOTE ]

(6) The Marlins did far better than anyone expected in 2006.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is because few sportswriters realized how much talent Bienfest gave to Girardi.

[ QUOTE ]
That was not all because of Girardi, but he did nurtured the young players; he did not abuse them. The pythagorean winning percentage is being misused repeatedly to conclude that the Marlins underperformed. The deviation from that winning percentage is not significant and can be accounted for by many factors that bear no weight on Girardi's performance.


[/ QUOTE ]

But the deviation from their raw performance numbers are even worse than the Pythag, they hit well enough and pitched well enough to be an above .500 team. And they hit even better this year under Fredi Gonzalez and were dramatically more effective base runners.

This under-performance to the raw numbers doesn't prove Girardi was a bad manager, as you say the deviation can be attributed to other factors that bear no weight on Girardi's performance. The real problem is that no one has given any reasons to show he was a good manager. Just because the same bunch of lazy sportswriters who gave Jeter three gold gloves for his great hitting also Girardi a Manager of the Year award because they totally underestimated how much talent Bienfest traded for doesn't make him a good manager.

People on this thread need to start giving rational reasons why Girardi was a good manager if they want anyone to believe it.

[ QUOTE ]

(7) And the Josh Johnson game. Probably a mistake, but it was in the heat of the race for the wild card and Johnson wanted to go back in. He stayed warm by playing catch in the cage under the stadium. It is also noteworthy that the opposing pitcher also stayed in the game. While the causation is hard to track, it is unlikely that the soreness he felt that day led to his need for Tommy John surgery.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think he actually had Tommy John surgery. And the problem with this incident isn't whether it caused the injury, it's that it was done against front office wishes, and shows his cavalier attitude towards his young pitchers and his front office's instructions. How the other team treated their pitcher is immaterial.

[ QUOTE ]

(8) Finally, what happened in Florida in 2006 is likely to be a very poor predictor of how the Yankees will do with Girardi in 2008. The teams are very different at every level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree 100% with this. Just not with the other stuff.

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK. Last response to the Girardi haters about the year with the Marlins:

(1) Girardi did not curse at his owner during that game. The worst he may have said is "Shut up."

[/ QUOTE ]

It was widely reported that Girardi told Loria to STFU. Heyman said the story could not be true, and quoted Micheal Kay (Michael Kay!) as evidence Girardi never curses. Either way, my point was he's got some anger control issues that make him a questionable leader of young men. You don't tell your boss to STFU or even to just shut up in public.

[ QUOTE ]

(2) Girardi did not choke a player in the dugout.


[/ QUOTE ]

It was specifically reported Girardi dragged Scott Olsen the length of the dugout by the collar of his jersey. Olsen appears to be the kind of guy who might deserve that, but once more it's evidence of anger control issues with Girardi.

[ QUOTE ]

(3) When Girardi was hired, the Marlins had a $60 million payroll. Within weeks, that was a $15 million payroll.


[/ QUOTE ]

Once again, this is absolutely meaningless. That $15M payroll included some awesome major league hitters and pitchers who put up a team OPS+ of 105 and a team ERA+ of 99, easily enough raw performance for a competent manager to field a winning team.

[ QUOTE ]

(4) Girardi wanted to protect the young pitchers and bring them up slowly. He was overruled by management.


[/ QUOTE ]

Girardi didn't believe in the young pitchers, was angry he didn't have the veterans he thought he would have, and tried to bury the youngsters in the bullpen. He was over-ruled by management and management was clearly right. Management should have also forced him to use his swing men more often and brought up some more AAA pitchers to occasionally spell these guys.

[ QUOTE ]

(5) In general, the players respected Girardi and there are even rumors that some of them were ready to walk out (not go on a road trip) if he was fired after the fight with Loria.


[/ QUOTE ]

There are also rumours that many of the players hated Girardi and were happy to see him gone. Rumours are rumours.

[ QUOTE ]

(6) The Marlins did far better than anyone expected in 2006.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is because few sportswriters realized how much talent Bienfest gave to Girardi.

[ QUOTE ]
That was not all because of Girardi, but he did nurtured the young players; he did not abuse them. The pythagorean winning percentage is being misused repeatedly to conclude that the Marlins underperformed. The deviation from that winning percentage is not significant and can be accounted for by many factors that bear no weight on Girardi's performance.


[/ QUOTE ]

But the deviation from their raw performance numbers are even worse than the Pythag, they hit well enough and pitched well enough to be an above .500 team. And they hit even better this year under Fredi Gonzalez and were dramatically more effective base runners.

This under-performance to the raw numbers doesn't prove Girardi was a bad manager, as you say the deviation can be attributed to other factors that bear no weight on Girardi's performance. The real problem is that no one has given any reasons to show he was a good manager. Just because the same bunch of lazy sportswriters who gave Jeter three gold gloves for his great hitting also Girardi a Manager of the Year award because they totally underestimated how much talent Bienfest traded for doesn't make him a good manager.

People on this thread need to start giving rational reasons why Girardi was a good manager if they want anyone to believe it.

[ QUOTE ]

(7) And the Josh Johnson game. Probably a mistake, but it was in the heat of the race for the wild card and Johnson wanted to go back in. He stayed warm by playing catch in the cage under the stadium. It is also noteworthy that the opposing pitcher also stayed in the game. While the causation is hard to track, it is unlikely that the soreness he felt that day led to his need for Tommy John surgery.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think he actually had Tommy John surgery. And the problem with this incident isn't whether it caused the injury, it's that it was done against front office wishes, and shows his cavalier attitude towards his young pitchers and his front office's instructions. How the other team treated their pitcher is immaterial.

[ QUOTE ]

(8) Finally, what happened in Florida in 2006 is likely to be a very poor predictor of how the Yankees will do with Girardi in 2008. The teams are very different at every level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree 100% with this. Just not with the other stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Joe G has been sought after as a manager for multiple years by multiple front offices. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they have a much better idea whether he has the makeup of a good manager then some dude on a message board.

[Vyse]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say they don't because it's pretty much been shown that if a manager does absolutely nothing in terms of in-game strategy and etc. the team is actually better off. Few managers legitimately help their team.

Sorry.

[Butcho22]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
k thx...didn't know about the yankee roots

[/ QUOTE ]

How did you not know he played for the Yankees or was a bench coach for them?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I don't follow baseball...weird, I know.

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to go out on a limb and say they don't because it's pretty much been shown that if a manager does absolutely nothing in terms of in-game strategy and etc. the team is actually better off. Few managers legitimately help their team.

Sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]

False.
Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

[Vyse]

www.baseballprospectus.com