Incident in Jena,La.

[RedBean]

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What I'm starting to see is a group of hoodlums, with a history of conflict with the police,

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Are you similarly looking into the juvenile records of the white youths involved?

The white victim who testimony shows was shouting racial slurs to goad the black youths into fighting?

If you did bother to check his record, you'd see he was arrested the same year for bringing a firearm to school.

He was given probation.

He wasn't lucky enough to be disarmed by a black youth, in which case the black youth could be charged with robbery. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

But, like you say, you see it as a group of hoodlums with a history of violence.....despite the possibility they might not even be the right six guys who attacked the victim as he shouted racial slurs......but what I see is a racist DA who told the black students prior to this event that "with one stroke of the pen, I can end your life."

And when simple assault occurred with questionable circumstances surrounding the identity of the attackers, the DA set out to do just as he originally promised, and he set out to convict them of attempted murder and conspiracy to commit murder.

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...seeing an opportunity to use racism as an attempt to get their rocks off beating the [censored] out of some white kid.

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I'm not condoning the assault, by any means, but when you start dropping the N-bomb in a room full of brothers, you are neither the sharpest tool in the shed, nor can you be said to be a sympathetic victim if they deliver you the business.

[MuresanForMVP]

RB, do you have some sort of background in law? I don't think your case against aggravated assault is very strong seeing as how the scope of what is considered a "deadly weapon" has become increasingly broad in recent times. It's reasonable to assert that in the instance of someone repeatedly kicking someone who was on the ground,unconscious, a pair of sneakers could be construed as a deadly weapon.

Conspiracy requires premeditation, but the exact definition and scope of "premeditation" is largely undefined. With the events that immediately lead up to the beating (as in the hours and minutes) being so clouded, it's pretty difficult to say whether or not it was planned by these 6, or if it more or less just "happened". But to brush off the possibility that they got together and decided that they were gonna jack the kid up is being very shortsighted. Premeditation can happen in the few minutes before a crime occurs, it's not necessary to sit at home and pore over detailed plans to fulfill the premeditation requirement.

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despite the abscence of premeditation, a deadly weapon, or the intent to inflict fatal harm?

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You keep saying that there was an absence of a deadly weapon, and premeditation as if it's some sort of fact. The perception of "deadly weapon" is up for debate, as many different objects can be used as deadly weapons in many different instances. It is very reasonable for someone to receive fatal injuries after being kicked repeatedly, while down, hence why sneakers can be entered as a weapon.

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With all due respect, you either live in a bubble, or are in some serious denial. Race plays a gigantic role in courtrooms all across the country.

Believe me, brother, I wish it didn't, and I wish it were as simple as you say....but it just ain't.

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Sometimes I wish I lived in a bubble, but no I don't. But what you responded to (my statement) meant that there was no link found between the nooses and the beating (so you can't blame it on that), and even though the DA is overzealous that doesn't change the fact that aggravated assault is absolutely within the realm of possible charges. [ QUOTE ]
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I see noone arguing for the innocence of these 6 men,



Have you looked?

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Yes I have, and aside from you and your arguments here, the extent of the pleas for acquittal have been based on the previous noose incidents, and the fact that the DA at one time pursued attempted murder. I haven't seen any that argue for their innocence based on the merits of the case themselves. If you do have "mountains of material" regarding this I'd invite you to post them here.


To clarify some of my opinions: Attempted murder is idiotic, it's pretty much a sure thing that the intent to kill wasn't there, and anyone saying the contrary really needs to rethink their position. Premeditation could have happened, but IMO (after what I've read) it probably wasn't so conspiracy should have been tossed out. But when it comes to 6 people on 1 person laying unconscious on the ground, it doesn't take much for a jury to consider someone's shoes to be deadly weapons, which I don't disagree with.

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I'm not condoning the assault, by any means, but when you start dropping the N-bomb in a room full of brothers, you are neither the sharpest tool in the shed, nor can you be said to be a sympathetic victim if they deliver you the business.

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Being a white guy from a high crime area with about a 75% black population county-wide, you definitely speak the truth there. You'd make a good defense lawyer RB (if you aren't already one haha)

Btw, I've discussed this with a couple of friends I have that are entering their final year in law school, among other people and one of them sent me a message today regarding my opinions that contain some solid (albeit fairly general) info: [ QUOTE ]
I am greatly enjoying your correct characterization of the case at hand. One point you may want to add...there is an option at court to transfer a case from one venue to another based on impossibility of fair trial (along with other various factors). It is called a 1404 transfer which indicates that venue is correct to begin with but for 1 reason or another (here, the racially divided community) a fair trial will not be possible. The quick response of "all white jury" is not fair or accurate as both attorneys have the power to remove possible jury members based on bias/ upbringing/ relationship to the case etc, in addition to transfer the case.

In addtion, public defenders are perfectly capable of competently and dilligently representing a person. They are paid regardless of the outcome (contingent fees are prohibited in criminal cases) and by the state. In a case such as this, public defenders typically pass of other cases so as to focus on the "big one" so as they are not stretched thin and can give all attention to the matter at hand. Some states even have laws in place which require this action. If an attorney did not competently represent their client they would be subject to discipline or disbarrment.

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[MuresanForMVP]

I'm about to go to sleep, but I'll be glad to discuss this further with you tomorrow Redbean

[DblBarrelJ]

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IMO, yes, Attempted murder is the correct charge. Regardless of intent, in a six on one beatdown, it is entirely possible to accidentally kill someone.


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Um....murder and attempted murder require intent to kill.

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Yes, and I believe that intent was present, although they failed.

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in a civilized society, you can't just go beating someone up for what they said, or did.


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In a civilized society, you can't just go charging every black kid who gets into a fight with attempted murder either.

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A fight, in my definition is one on one. In the neighborhood I grew up in, six on one = someone is trying to kill you.

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If they commited simple assault, they should be charged with simple assault.

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Simple assault is me punching you in the nose and walking away. Not me and five of my friends jumping you and beating you unconcious then stomping on your unconcious body.

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Emotions not withstanding, no one was physically hurt by the nooses hanging from the tree. Someone was physically hurt by a six on one gang attack.


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Totally agree, but likewise, no one attempted murder, and no one was assaulted with a deadly weapon.

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Due to my line of work, I've taken several Law Enforcement Hand to Hand combat courses, and stomping repeatedly on a subject who is on the ground is considered "Deadly Force" in all of them.


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Needless to say, with just what I've found so far, these six had a history of violence and crime, and this was not a group of innocent teens who, in the face of deep oppression, lost control. What I'm starting to see is a group of hoodlums, with a history of conflict with the police, seeing an opportunity to use racism as an attempt to get their rocks off beating the [censored] out of some white kid.

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But what about Coach Lewis, the only adult who witnessed the attack, saying that he did not see any of the six charged strike the victim, and instead named a seperate boy as the aggressor?

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I'm no Law Student, but if Coach Lewis was such an important witness, why wasn't he called as a Defense witness?

[DblBarrelJ]

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What I'm starting to see is a group of hoodlums, with a history of conflict with the police,

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Are you similarly looking into the juvenile records of the white youths involved?

The white victim who testimony shows was shouting racial slurs to goad the black youths into fighting?

If you did bother to check his record, you'd see he was arrested the same year for bringing a firearm to school.

He was given probation.

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I'm looking into that. I've pretty much given up, as I'm very tired. I've got like 3/4 of a page on MS Word CTRL+V'd. I'm going to delve deeper into the firearm situation. Being that these kids are obviously redneck kids, I'm looking to try to find out if this was a handgun brought into the school or some type of hunting rifle behind the seat of his vehicle. I usually hung out with the redneck crowd in high school, and I had a very close friend who got his truck searched and they found his hunting rifle behind the seat. He'd forgotten to remove it. He too, was given probation. If that's the situation, I'll personally be alot more lenient toward him than if I found out he snuck a 9mm GLOCK into the school in his backpack.

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But, like you say, you see it as a group of hoodlums with a history of violence.....despite the possibility they might not even be the right six guys who attacked the victim as he shouted racial slurs......but what I see is a racist DA who told the black students prior to this event that "with one stroke of the pen, I can end your life."

And when simple assault occurred with questionable circumstances surrounding the identity of the attackers, the DA set out to do just as he originally promised, and he set out to convict them of attempted murder and conspiracy to commit murder.

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The more I look into this, the more I see a situation where no one is truly innocent, and that includes the school board, the DA, the white kids and the black kids. However, you cannot allow one group to walk just because another did. Personally, I would love to see Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton calling for the resignation of every member of the school board, the expulsion of the white students involved, and the immediate resignation of the DA. Unfortunately, that is as close to justice as you can get. Jackson and Sharpton calling for these six boys release will do nothing but lead them further down the criminal path they seem to have started down. I guess part of the reason I'm so harsh toward these six boys is because I'm kind of old school when it comes to dealing wiht conflict, and jumping is such a cowardly act.

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...seeing an opportunity to use racism as an attempt to get their rocks off beating the [censored] out of some white kid.

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I'm not condoning the assault, by any means, but when you start dropping the N-bomb in a room full of brothers, you are neither the sharpest tool in the shed, nor can you be said to be a sympathetic victim if they deliver you the business.

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I agree, although I have sympathy for anyone who is jumped. Had he sustained these injuries in a one on one fight, I would've applauded the brother who kicked his ass. As played, however, it is a cowardly act, among many other cowardly acts performed by the white students, that these six must answer for.

As I stated earlier, the white kids who did this should be expelled, at a minimum. I am unfamiliar with LA law, but it seems that it should be possible to somehow charge these kids with "Making Terroristic Threats" or something of that nature. These kids deserve to pay for what they've done, but violence in situations like this only creates more violence.

[RedBean]

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RB, do you have some sort of background in law?


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I have a background in circumventing laws.

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I don't think your case against aggravated assault is very strong seeing as how the scope of what is considered a "deadly weapon" has become increasingly broad in recent times.


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You don't think I could present a case that sneakers are not to be universally considered a "deadly weapon"?

Every time someone kicks someone else with shoes on, would you consider that assault with a deadly weapon?

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It's reasonable to assert that in the instance of someone repeatedly kicking someone who was on the ground,unconscious, a pair of sneakers could be construed as a deadly weapon.

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The position of the victim relative to the ground, nor the consciousness of the victim are a determining factor in deciding the lethality of a weapon.

True, it makes the crime that much more heinous, but it doesn't make sneakers a deadly weapon.

Also of note, all evidence presented concedes the victim was knocked to the ground and unconscious by one single blow from a fist of a black attacker.

No witness testified to seeing Bell kick Baker, and it was argued that his participation constituted aggravated assault because his fist struck the blow that rendered the victim unconcious and allowed other to kick him.

Despite numerous witness disagreement that Bell was in fact the person who struck Baker initially with a fist.

Not a single witness could definitively state they saw Bell strike Baker, yet he was convicted for assault with a deadly weapon.

Not a single witness testified they saw the victim kicked in the head. Does that change your view on sneakers being a deadly weapon if the person is being kicked in the legs/arms?

How many kicks to the arms with sneakers on would be necessary to result in fatality?

Simple assault is a slam dunk here for the prosecution, but aggravated assault was a reach....yet they only gave the jury the option for agg. assault or not guilty.....instead of an option of a lesser verdict.


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Conspiracy requires premeditation, but the exact definition and scope of "premeditation" is largely undefined. With the events that immediately lead up to the beating (as in the hours and minutes) being so clouded, it's pretty difficult to say whether or not it was planned by these 6, or if it more or less just "happened". But to brush off the possibility that they got together and decided that they were gonna jack the kid up is being very shortsighted. Premeditation can happen in the few minutes before a crime occurs, it's not necessary to sit at home and pore over detailed plans to fulfill the premeditation requirement.


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The conspircay conviction was thrown out almost immediately, reducing the possible term from 22 years to 15 years.

The prosecution did not even remotely establish a conspiracy existed to commit aggravated assault.

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The perception of "deadly weapon" is up for debate, as many different objects can be used as deadly weapons in many different instances. It is very reasonable for someone to receive fatal injuries after being kicked repeatedly, while down, hence why sneakers can be entered as a weapon.


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I agree, it can be debated and argued. A person can also sustain deadly injuries from a fist or a bare foot, but that does not make them deadly weapons, especially considering testimony unable to establish the victim was ever kicked in the head, but instead the arms/legs and midsection.

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even though the DA is overzealous that doesn't change the fact that aggravated assault is absolutely within the realm of possible charges.

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Would you also agree that simple assault is within the realm of possible charges, if one beleived an assault occured, but cannot find it reasonable to consider sneakers a "deadly weapon"?

And if so, why did the DA refuse to give that option to the jury, and instead put them in a position to find aggravated assault or not guilty?

Even at worst, if they gave the jury instruction choice between agg, simple, or not guilty, it could be considered inifintely more fair than what transpired by forcing the all-white jury in a small town to choose between agg and not guilty.

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Yes I have, and aside from you and your arguments here, the extent of the pleas for acquittal have been based on the previous noose incidents, and the fact that the DA at one time pursued attempted murder. I haven't seen any that argue for their innocence based on the merits of the case themselves. If you do have "mountains of material" regarding this I'd invite you to post them here.


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You really want me to post mountains of arguments available on the internet inline?

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But when it comes to 6 people on 1 person laying unconscious on the ground, it doesn't take much for a jury to consider someone's shoes to be deadly weapons, which I don't disagree with.


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Just curious, in a 1 on 1 fight between me and you...if I kick you with shoes on, would you view that as assault with a deadly weapon?

Even if I kicked you in the leg?

Or are you letting the circumstances of the attack inflame you to the point of losing control of your senses to the point of labeling sneakers a deadly weapon?

I have no doubt that a person kicking the piss out of someone in the head on the ground can lead to death, but that does not make sneakers a commonly accepted deadly weapon.

The white kid was sucker-punched from behind, knocked out cold before he hit the ground, and then 5 other kids ran up and began kicking him.

It's terrible, it's inexcusable, but it just isn't assault with a deadly weapon.

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The quick response of "all white jury" is not fair or accurate as both attorneys have the power to remove possible jury members based on bias/ upbringing/ relationship to the case etc, in addition to transfer the case.


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It is what it is....the jury was all-white. Saying as much isn't inaccurate. It doesn't necessarily mean they were biased.

I have a much bigger problem with the jury not being allowed to consider a lesser verdict than with their skin color.


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In addtion, public defenders are perfectly capable of competently and dilligently representing a person.


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Certainly agree. They are also completely capable of being unprepared and not properly defending their clients, as I would readily argue to be the case here.

If nothing more, the public defender did not even present a defense and rested immediately upon the prosecutions concluding it's case.

How can anyone justify a public defender not even attempting to present a defense or negotiate a lesser plea in this case?

[RedBean]

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Yes, and I believe that intent was present, although they failed.


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You believe they intended to kill the victim?

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A fight, in my definition is one on one. In the neighborhood I grew up in, six on one = someone is trying to kill you.


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It was more 1 v 0....as the white victim was struck from behind with a closed fist, and fell unconscious.

The other "five" came into play when they piled on the kick the victim in the arms and legs for a short period before being broken up.

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Simple assault is me punching you in the nose and walking away. Not me and five of my friends jumping you and beating you unconcious then stomping on your unconcious body.


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Simple assault is you punching me in the nose? What if I have a glass jaw and that one blow happens to render me unconcious?

And then 5 other people come along and start kicking me?

Does that turn your simple assault into aggravated assault with a deadly weapon?

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Due to my line of work, I've taken several Law Enforcement Hand to Hand combat courses, and stomping repeatedly on a subject who is on the ground is considered "Deadly Force" in all of them.


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I agree, for those individuals trained in hand to hand combat, it is legally considered deadly force.

However, Mychal Bell is a 16 year old freshman in high school, not a highly trained H2H combat expert, and his legs and limbs are not classified as deadly weapons.


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I'm no Law Student, but if Coach Lewis was such an important witness, why wasn't he called as a Defense witness?

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The public defender did not present a case....one of the central arguments with the situation is the inadequate defense.

Even more troubling, the DA knew about the possible exculpatory testimony and despite having a legal obligation to present it as an officer of the court, he also refused to call Coach Lewis as a witness.

This and several other similar factors will be central in this issue against the DA moving forward.

[RedBean]

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I'm going to delve deeper into the firearm situation. Being that these kids are obviously redneck kids, I'm looking to try to find out if this was a handgun brought into the school or some type of hunting rifle behind the seat of his vehicle. I usually hung out with the redneck crowd in high school, and I had a very close friend who got his truck searched and they found his hunting rifle behind the seat. He'd forgotten to remove it. He too, was given probation. If that's the situation, I'll personally be alot more lenient toward him than if I found out he snuck a 9mm GLOCK into the school in his backpack.

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So let me get this right....you'd be inclined to be "lenient" on a white kid who brought a long rifle to school amidst racial tensions precipitated by his involvment in a confrontation in with he shouts racial slurs at black students....

....but yet you consider the black students SNEAKERS to be deadly weapons and feel it justified that he be charged with attempted murder?

Egads, man.

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The more I look into this, the more I see a situation where no one is truly innocent, and that includes the school board, the DA, the white kids and the black kids. However, you cannot allow one group to walk just because another did.

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I'm not calling for anyone to walk. I'd like to see the black kids treated fairly, that's all.

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Personally, I would love to see Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton calling for the resignation of every member of the school board, the expulsion of the white students involved, and the immediate resignation of the DA.


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I'd like to see Jackson and Sharpton tied to a heavy anchor and set to sea, but that's another issue entirely.

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I guess part of the reason I'm so harsh toward these six boys is because I'm kind of old school when it comes to dealing wiht conflict, and jumping is such a cowardly act.


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I'm old school too. Abusing the criminal justice process to send someone who looks different to prison for a long time is infinitely more cowardly.

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As played, however, it is a cowardly act, among many other cowardly acts performed by the white students, that these six must answer for.

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I agree they should answer, but the punishment should be commensurate to the crime.

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As I stated earlier, the white kids who did this should be expelled, at a minimum.


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I dunno. Hanging nooses isn't an expellable offense without as much as a warning, imo.....although I could see it either way. Can't just kick these kids out of school entirely for one act......it's not like Jena has a plethora of alternative choices for education.

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I am unfamiliar with LA law

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You should get the DVD's, Corbin Bernsen amd Harry Hamlin are great in this, and a young Jimmy Smits....and the retarted Arnie guy is great comic relief. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[djoyce003]

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I'm not attacking the all-white jury, just stating the fact. It is what it is, no more no less.


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As previously mentioned, black people were called, they didn't show up.

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As for the credibility of the witnesses, it's simple fact that the only adult witness to the assault says that Mychal Bell did not hit Joseph Baker, and explicitly names another person as the attacker, one that isn't even charged.



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Then the defense will be allowed to present this evidence at trial. If it's so ironclad, i'm sure it will get them off.




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You think it's foolish to think they'd get convicted of charges they didn't commit?

Mychal Bell was originally convicted for felony second-degree aggravated assault and conspiracy to commit the same.

That charge requires premeditated conspiracy between at least two people to assualt another person with a deadly weapon with no regard to whether or not they inflict fatal damage.

Would it be foolish to also think that a 16-year old youth could be convicted of both those charges as an adult in the Jena courts, and face a possibility of a 22 year prison sentence.....despite the abscence of premeditation, a deadly weapon, or the intent to inflict fatal harm?

Because that is what happened.



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ORLY? I honestly don't see how anyone can think that kicking an unconcious person in the head is done without the intent of possibly inflicting fatal harm.
Why don't you lay down, and let someone kick you in the head a few times, and you decide whether you think it could potentially be fatal.


I'm not sure what really happened here. However I don't see anyone denying that they are guilty. The outrage is more about the charges against one side and not the other. The point is, it appears they are guilty of exactly what they are charged of.

As for credibility. I'm more inclined to believe someone that went to the hospital than someone that didn't. The gun thing sounds bizaare, and obviously if someone pulled a gun on you, and you disarm them, it's not robbery. I thought those charges were dropped though. It's not implausible to think that the guy that got his gun taken, reported it as stolen, told the cops who did it...they caught them and arrested them. When the whole story came out, charges were dropped....maybe i'm wrong on that but it sounds extremely reasonable and possible.

[RedBean]

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I'm not attacking the all-white jury, just stating the fact. It is what it is, no more no less.


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As previously mentioned, black people were called, they didn't show up.


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I don't know what relevance this has, even assuming it to be credible.


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Then the defense will be allowed to present this evidence at trial. If it's so ironclad, i'm sure it will get them off.

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The public defender did not present a case, and perhaps was not even aware of Coach Lewis' statement at the time of trial.

The DA, however, was aware of it...and he is under legal obligation to come forward with exculpatory evidence. It has yet to be addressed why he didn't.

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ORLY? I honestly don't see how anyone can think that kicking an unconcious person in the head is done without the intent of possibly inflicting fatal harm.


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Not a single witness testified that they saw anyone kick the victim in the head.

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Why don't you lay down, and let someone kick you in the head a few times, and you decide whether you think it could potentially be fatal.

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I could kill you with my bare hands. That doesn't mean if I wore rubber gloves that rubber gloves could be considered a deadly weapon.

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I'm not sure what really happened here. However I don't see anyone denying that they are guilty.


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You haven't look hard, then. Several advocacy groups and websites are disputing the merits of the case.

For one, the only person who testified naming more than three attackers readily admitted under oath that she did not see a single person strike the victim.

Not a single other witness has been able to name more than three of the attackers, and all of the accounts vary wildy in which three they name.

The only thing consistent with the Jena 6 is that they are the same six students who organized a peaceful protest against the noose hangings, which prompted the DA's appearance at the school and his foreshadowed warning that "with the storke of a pen, he could end their lives."

Try as he might, he may have just gotten his hand caught in the jar when the issue expanded beyond the small pond of his influence, and is ultimately going to be resolved by those much higher on the chain than him.

And it's got to have him a bit concerned, considering his actions may have been racially motivated and criminal.