How good is Tim Duncan?

[Assani Fisher]

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(Also, if Stockton was so magical as to turn Malone into the best power forward ever, and the 2nd leading scorer of all time, what does that make him? God?)

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Come on, JoA..the rest of your post was well thought out and good and then you had to throw that senseless jab in there. Clearly I wasn't saying that Stockton MADE Malone, and you know that. But obviously playing with a top 3 PG of all time is going to help a scorer a lot. Do you really disagree with that or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

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Perhaps playing with a top 3 all-time ranked PER player in Robinson for 2 of the championships helped Tim a bit?

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Saying that he "played with Robinson" and then citing a Robinson career stat is completely misleading and you know it. He played with Robinson at the end of his career when he wasn't nearly the same player that he used to be.

Thats like me saying that Bird played with "former MVP Bill Walton."

[Jack of Arcades]

Robinson was ranked third in PER when they won their first title.

[Assani Fisher]

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I'll put it to you this way:

In 1998-99, other than Duncan the Spurs had:
0 guys on the All STar Team

In 2002-03 other than Duncan the Spurs had:
0 guys on the All sTar Team

In 2004-05 other than Duncan the Spurs had:
1 guy on the All STar Team



In 1980-81 other than Bird the Celtics had:
2 guys on the All Star TEam

In 1983-84 other than Bird the Celtics had:
2 guys on the All Star Team

In 1985-86 other than Bird the Celtics had:
2 guys on the All Star Team

And also please note that doesn't even include Dennis Johnson who was a 5 time all star but just happened to never make it in a year in which they won a title.

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Spurs had several players who had or would make all-star games. Look at Hakeem's supporting cast in 93 if you want to see a team totally carried by one guy.

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So because a guy used to be good(Robinson) that helps in the current time? Or because a guy will be good(Parker, Ginobli) that helps in the current time? Seriously?

[Assani Fisher]

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(Also, if Stockton was so magical as to turn Malone into the best power forward ever, and the 2nd leading scorer of all time, what does that make him? God?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on, JoA..the rest of your post was well thought out and good and then you had to throw that senseless jab in there. Clearly I wasn't saying that Stockton MADE Malone, and you know that. But obviously playing with a top 3 PG of all time is going to help a scorer a lot. Do you really disagree with that or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

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Obviously playing with the top power forward of all time helped John Stockton, too. How much of an impact could he have had on Karl Malone?

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Its hard to quantify. Its like saying that Rice helped Montana and vice versa. But its very obvious that the players were indeed helped by each other. If you really want me to throw out a number, I'd say that without Stockton then Malone would've scored anywhere from 2-4 less points per game. But of course thats a total shot in the dark, and we'll never know for sure.

[Assani Fisher]

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Assani, your post is a joke. You can't compare supporting casts in a vaccuum, you have to compare them TO THEIR OWN ERA. And then you use PER to say Duncan > Bird and MAgic, when in another thread you admitted you were cherry-picking any stat just so you looked good, and that you didn't even agree with the premise that PER set for other All-Time greats.

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Vyse,

That is why I used All STar Games as my criteria. Judging someone by their all star appearances is indeed comparing them to their own era. Do you not see that?

[Assani Fisher]

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Robinson was ranked third in PER when they won their first title.

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And you don't think that was helped by the fact that he was playing next to Duncan?

Nevertheless, I'll admit that I underrated him there.

[Jack of Arcades]

Given the fact that he was first in the league just three seasons ago? Oh, not that much.

[Mano]

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I'll put it to you this way:

In 1998-99, other than Duncan the Spurs had:
0 guys on the All STar Team

In 2002-03 other than Duncan the Spurs had:
0 guys on the All sTar Team

In 2004-05 other than Duncan the Spurs had:
1 guy on the All STar Team



In 1980-81 other than Bird the Celtics had:
2 guys on the All Star TEam

In 1983-84 other than Bird the Celtics had:
2 guys on the All Star Team

In 1985-86 other than Bird the Celtics had:
2 guys on the All Star Team

And also please note that doesn't even include Dennis Johnson who was a 5 time all star but just happened to never make it in a year in which they won a title.

[/ QUOTE ]


Spurs had several players who had or would make all-star games. Look at Hakeem's supporting cast in 93 if you want to see a team totally carried by one guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

So because a guy used to be good(Robinson) that helps in the current time? Or because a guy will be good(Parker, Ginobli) that helps in the current time? Seriously?

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Robinson basically coasted through the regular season, since he no longer had to carry the team. He could still play, albeit with some pain. Parker and Ginobli had not been recognized as all-stars yet, but it was their performances in playoffs and championship which led people to recognize them as the talents they are.

[Assani Fisher]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'll put it to you this way:

In 1998-99, other than Duncan the Spurs had:
0 guys on the All STar Team

In 2002-03 other than Duncan the Spurs had:
0 guys on the All sTar Team

In 2004-05 other than Duncan the Spurs had:
1 guy on the All STar Team



In 1980-81 other than Bird the Celtics had:
2 guys on the All Star TEam

In 1983-84 other than Bird the Celtics had:
2 guys on the All Star Team

In 1985-86 other than Bird the Celtics had:
2 guys on the All Star Team

And also please note that doesn't even include Dennis Johnson who was a 5 time all star but just happened to never make it in a year in which they won a title.

[/ QUOTE ]


Spurs had several players who had or would make all-star games. Look at Hakeem's supporting cast in 93 if you want to see a team totally carried by one guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

So because a guy used to be good(Robinson) that helps in the current time? Or because a guy will be good(Parker, Ginobli) that helps in the current time? Seriously?

[/ QUOTE ]

Robinson basically coasted through the regular season, since he no longer had to carry the team. He could still play, albeit with some pain. Parker and Ginobli had not been recognized as all-stars yet, but it was their performances in playoffs and championship which led people to recognize them as the talents they are.

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Mano, look...I think that Ginboli and Parker are very good players. And I do agree that, as JoA showed me, perhaps I undervalued Robinson at the end of his career a bit.

But we're talking about the 6 greatest teams of all time. Every other team is loaded with great players. Every other team is loaded with great role players. As I said above, the Spurs are giving quality minutes to guys like Udrih, Bonner, Oberto, Elson, etc. Those guys don't belong in the discussion when talking about greatest teams of all time, do they??!!!

I really feel like you're completely unwilling to even consider the possibilities that you may be wrong here, and love me or hate me most people would admit that I am very willing to reconsider my position on things.

Bird had McHale and Parish. That frontcourt is unbelievable! Then add in 5 time all star, finals mvp, and 9 time all defensive team Dennis Johnson. Do you realize that Dennis Johnson made the All NBA 1st team one year! Thats the 5 best players in the league!! And he was only the 4th best player on those Celtics.

Bird's supporting cast blows Duncan's away, and its not even close.

[Mano]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'll put it to you this way:

In 1998-99, other than Duncan the Spurs had:
0 guys on the All STar Team

In 2002-03 other than Duncan the Spurs had:
0 guys on the All sTar Team

In 2004-05 other than Duncan the Spurs had:
1 guy on the All STar Team



In 1980-81 other than Bird the Celtics had:
2 guys on the All Star TEam

In 1983-84 other than Bird the Celtics had:
2 guys on the All Star Team

In 1985-86 other than Bird the Celtics had:
2 guys on the All Star Team

And also please note that doesn't even include Dennis Johnson who was a 5 time all star but just happened to never make it in a year in which they won a title.

[/ QUOTE ]


Spurs had several players who had or would make all-star games. Look at Hakeem's supporting cast in 93 if you want to see a team totally carried by one guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

So because a guy used to be good(Robinson) that helps in the current time? Or because a guy will be good(Parker, Ginobli) that helps in the current time? Seriously?

[/ QUOTE ]

Robinson basically coasted through the regular season, since he no longer had to carry the team. He could still play, albeit with some pain. Parker and Ginobli had not been recognized as all-stars yet, but it was their performances in playoffs and championship which led people to recognize them as the talents they are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mano, look...I think that Ginboli and Parker are very good players. And I do agree that, as JoA showed me, perhaps I undervalued Robinson at the end of his career a bit.

But we're talking about the 6 greatest teams of all time. Every other team is loaded with great players. Every other team is loaded with great role players. As I said above, the Spurs are giving quality minutes to guys like Udrih, Bonner, Oberto, Elson, etc. Those guys don't belong in the discussion when talking about greatest teams of all time, do they??!!!

I really feel like you're completely unwilling to even consider the possibilities that you may be wrong here, and love me or hate me most people would admit that I am very willing to reconsider my position on things.

Bird had McHale and Parish. That frontcourt is unbelievable! Then add in 5 time all star, finals mvp, and 9 time all defensive team Dennis Johnson. Do you realize that Dennis Johnson made the All NBA 1st team one year! Thats the 5 best players in the league!! And he was only the 4th best player on those Celtics.

Bird's supporting cast blows Duncan's away, and its not even close.

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I will concede Bird had a better supporting cast overall, I was trying to illustrate that TD was not playing with a bunch of scrubs (especially in the first part of his career when he played with an upper tier HOF'er) - will you concede Boston had a touger path to win their championships? Do you think Duncans Spurs teams could beat the showtime Lakers?