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#101
09-20-2007, 12:58 PM
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Re: John King, UN = LIAR
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[ QUOTE ] November 1983. Banca Nazionale del Lavoro of Italy and its Branch in Atlanta begin to funnel $5 billion in unreported loans to Iraq. Iraq, with the blessing and official approval of the U.S. government, purchased computer controlled machine tools, computers, scientific instruments, special alloy steel and aluminum, chemicals, and other industrial goods for Iraq's missile, chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs. - November 1983. George Schultz, the Secretary of State, is given intelligence reports showing that Iraqi troops are daily using chemical weapons against the Iranians. - July 1984. CIA begins giving Iraq intelligence necessary to calibrate its mustard gas attacks on Iranian troops. - March 1986. The United States with Great Britain block all Security Council resolutions condemning Iraq's use of chemical weapons, and on March 21 the U.S. becomes the only country refusing to sign a Security Council statement condemning Iraq's use of these weapons. - May 1986. The U.S. Department of Commerce licenses 70 biological exports to Iraq between May of 1985 and 1989, including at least 21 batches of lethal strains of anthrax. - May 1986. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of weapons grade botulin poison to Iraq. - Late 1987. The Iraqi Air Force begins using chemical agents against Kurdish resistance forces in northern Iraq. - April 1988. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of chemicals used in manufacture of mustard gas. - August 1988. Four major battles were fought from April to August 1988, in which the Iraqis massively and effectively used chemical weapons to defeat the Iranians. Nerve gas and blister agents such as mustard gas are used. In the last major battle with of the war, 65,000 Iranians are killed, many with poison gas. Use of chemical weapons in war is in violation of the Geneva accords of 1925. - August 1988. Five days after the cease fire Saddam Hussein sends his planes and helicopters to northern Iraq to begin massive chemical attacks against the Kurds. - September 1988. U.S. Department of Commerce approves shipment of weapons grade anthrax and botulinum to Iraq. - December 1988. Dow chemical sells $1.5 million in pesticides to Iraq despite knowledge that these would be used in chemical weapons. - July 25, 1990. U.S. Ambassador to Baghdad meets with Hussein to assure him that President Bush "wanted better and deeper relations." Many believe this visit was a trap set for Hussein. A month later Hussein invaded Kuwait thinking the U.S. would not respond. - July 1991. The Financial Times of London reveals that a Florida chemical company had produced and shipped cyanide to Iraq during the 80's using a special CIA courier. Cyanide was used extensively against the Iranians. - February 1994. Senator Riegle from Michigan, chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, testifies before the senate revealing large U.S. shipments of dual-use biological and chemical agents to Iraq that may have been used against U.S. troops in the Gulf War and probably was the cause of the illness known as Gulf War Syndrome. [/ QUOTE ] This post is one large pile of steaming crap.... Show a link supporting each silly assertion from a credible source...or concede you just another brainwashed conspiracy theorist. <font color="red"> *Just for fun I picked ***ONE*** assertion on the link you provided: "May 1986. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of weapons grade botulin poison to Iraq. [7]"</font> [/ QUOTE ] i have no idea where were you looking about sources. i have checked [7] for you... U.S. Exports of Biological Materials to Iraq The Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs has oversight responsibility for the Export Administration Act. Pursuant to the Act, Committee staff contacted the U.S. Department of Commerce and requested information on the export of biological materials during the years prior to the Gulf War. After receiving this information, we contacted a principal supplier of these materials to determine what, if any, materials were exported to Iraq which might have contributed to an offensive or defensive biological warfare program. Records available from the supplier for the period from 1985 until the present show that during this time, pathogenic (meaning "disease producing"), toxigenic (meaning "poisonous"), and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce. Records prior to 1985 were not available, according to the supplier. These exported biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction. link Would you be so kind to comment each of those facts in above timetable. Before your post i'd be sure you would you support an export of those weapons to your close ally which is fighting against the enemy of the USA. Wouldn't you support that Felix? 
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#103
09-20-2007, 02:03 PM
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Re: I Lost Track of This Post....But Here I Go
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The Kurds 20% population is more than ample to rule Iraq. In addition, Kurds from Turkey would likely immigrant to a Kurdish run Iraq increases the % of Kurds... 2. I said establish a Kurdish dictatorship. The Kurdish version of Saddam would need to burn down a few Sunni/Shia villages to establish his alpha dog status. And like Saddam the Arabs would start behaving. As the Arabs say, "Better 100 years of tyranny than one day of chaos". A Kurdish dicatorship would be an improvement over the mess Bush made. [/ QUOTE ] Well, I don't know what to say to this. If the plan was to knock out a dictator just to prop a new one up instead of "spread democracy" there would have never been enough support for the war. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Is it clear (from independent agencies)? Anyways, this didn't work out too great in Vietnam. What exactly makes you think we aren't making ourselves more enemies by striking at economic assets and putting their civilians in more poverty? [/ QUOTE ] More enemies? They are already our enemies to **** them. [/ QUOTE ] This is the type of mindset that caused 3,000 Americans to die in the first place The *government* may hate us. You have to stop looking at a nation deciding that "they hate us, [censored] 'em" because all it does it cause more hatred, violence, and death. You have to break the cycle or else this is going to continue on until one group is wiped off the face of the planet. It is indisputable that the terrorism perpetuated against Americans by muslims is in an attempt to get them out of their lands and out of their affairs. So what's your solution?? Invade them, establish more permanent bases, install dictators that a majority of the population will reject, cripple other nations economies. You know, do the exact same thing that pissed them off in the first place. I don't get how you can possibly be a sane individual and come to that type of conclusion. [ QUOTE ] Bombing Iran's oil infrastructure will cripple their economy. No money to finance Shia terrorism is a good thing. Allowing transgression to go unanswered has been shown since the writing of history to encourage even bolder transgressions. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, the way we punished Germany after WWI certainly did work out well. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] It's not that difficult. If you throw millions into poverty they're going to hate you and do whatever's possible to kill you. All your doing is feeding into the cycle of death and destuction. [ QUOTE ] Paying for the war and paying for reconstruction are two separate items. Oil is being used by the Iraqi govt for reconstruction. However too much of it goes to corruption rather than needy areas. The insurgents blowing up the pipelines does not help either. [/ QUOTE ] Now you're just splitting hairs. Here's what the administration alluded to in the run up. War: Wouldn't cost much, would be short and easy. Occupation: We'd be greeted as liberators. Reconstruction: Not a problem. But they lied to us. They knew along it would be a quagmire. If the people would have known this whole clusterfuck would have cost a trillion dollars they wouldn't have supported it. Your objections about the way the occupation has been run are mute because the American public would have rightly seen the *right* way to occupy a nation is barbaric. [ QUOTE ] The occupation was bungled. Starting with Bush appointing that idiot General Garner. This guy was the "Al Gonzales" of occupied Iraq. Then we get that nitwit Paul Bremer who was an expert at smooth talking and sweeping problems under the rug. A proper occupation strategy with proper execution would have reduced our occupation troubles by 80%. [/ QUOTE ] It doesn't matter who's in charge if the people there hate us. Americans are going to die and Innocent iraqis are going to die. Contractors are going to make amazing money at the exspence of our dime. And the cycle of death and destruction continues, perpetuating more anti-Americanism and more inspiration to kill us. Our presence in Iraq has hurt our security, not helped it. You can try to say the occupation was bundled but people were going to hate us for invading Iraq regardless of how successful our ability to smash the insurgents. [ QUOTE ] Al Qaeda does not need anymore excuses to attack the USA. [/ QUOTE ] As long as we continue building bases in their lands I'm sure they will want to attack us. You seem to not even understand why AQ attacks us. If you're big on old quotations then you should know that knowing your enemy is very important. Everytime someones son, daughter, father, mother, brother, or sister dies all it's doing is causing more to take up arms against us. AQ's strength is not a fixed quanity. It's largely dependent on how many people hate America. [censored]ing up other people's economies and starting wars that cause over a million dead *helps* AQ, it makes us more likely to be killed by them. If we leave the middle east, AQ's cause is done. Those that are against American interventionalism begin to stop funding/participating in AQ and go back to their families and jobs. The diehards may stay but they are then incredibly weakened in numbers, funding, and popularity. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The permanent bases we're building tell us they'll likely to be in Iraq for a long time (decades) just like Europe, Japan, South Korea, and Saudi Arabia. [/ QUOTE ] Perhaps... [/ QUOTE ] I'm guessing you support this?
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#104
09-20-2007, 02:04 PM
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Re: Making Lucid Posts is TOOOO Much Work.....
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[ QUOTE ] I guess Felix has conceded these points. [/ QUOTE ] I lost track of the posts. I addressed your points in the first post.... [/ QUOTE ] it's all good. Just teasing you [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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#105
09-20-2007, 04:02 PM
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Re: I Lost Track of This Post....But Here I Go
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If the plan was to knock out a dictator just to prop a new one up instead of "spread democracy" there would have never been enough support for the war. [/ QUOTE ] I never liked Bush's PR to support the Iraq war. I favored the war because (a)Iraq violated the armistice many times and (2) they tried to kill Bush41 in 1993 when he visited Kuwait. Everything else was extra noise. The nation building experiment in Somalia was a failure. Installing a friendly Kurdish dictatorship would be a VAST improvement over the current situation. And much easier to implement. Again I recommend readin Thomas Friedman's book. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Beirut_to_Jerusalem His chapter on "Hamas Rules" explains how Syrian dictator Assad was able to massacre and entire town and gain the love and respect of the entire country. A central theme in the Arab culture. "Better 100 years of tyranny than one day of chaos". There was no 'circle of violence' with Assad's strategy. CRUSH your enemies and enjoy the fruits of peace. Half-ass measures lead to prolong violence (aka Korea). This is not me talking.....this is the REAL LIFE talking... [ QUOTE ] This is the type of mindset that caused 3,000 Americans to die in the first place [/ QUOTE ] That is a risk I'm willing to take. History supports my position. Iran has been our enemies since their revolution. Long stalemates result in massive loss of life. Victory results in less loss of life. Iran must be made an example of for their efforts to kill US soldiers. [ QUOTE ] Invade them, establish more permanent bases, install dictators that a majority of the population will reject, cripple other nations economies. You know, do the exact same thing that pissed them off in the first place. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, that pretty much sums up what we should do to out enemies....these half-ass solutions have been a massive failure. The last man we had in the white house was Reagan. Time to up the ante. When Iran started laying mines in the Persian Gulf and attacking neutral shipping, Reagan attack the Iranian Navy and destroyed half their ships in 1-day. Then Iran became very peaceful. Hmmmm.funny how that happens. When dealing with primitive cultures you must use primitive means. Gunboat dimplomacy, when properly applied, works..... Appeasement is useless... [ QUOTE ] Yeah, the way we punished Germany after WWI certainly did work out well. [/ QUOTE ] WW2 was cause by George Clemenceau(France) and Lloyd George(UK). If you wanted to design a treaty that would guarantee a second world war it would be hard to do much better than the Versaille Treaty. [ QUOTE ] As long as we continue building bases in their lands I'm sure they will want to attack us. You seem to not even understand why AQ attacks us. [/ QUOTE ] I don't give a damn why AQ hates us. I just want to kill them, burn their homes, and plow salt in their farm lands.
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#106
09-20-2007, 05:28 PM
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Re: And His Point Is?.....
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Felix Nietzsche you are an idiot. [/ QUOTE ] I see no reason to call him an idiot. Seems smart to me. I also think that, like the real Nietzsche, there is a strong chance that he will die quite insane, but I suppose there is always hope for any young person to change his path in this very life, and if not, there's always the next one.
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#107
09-20-2007, 07:20 PM
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Re: I Lost Track of This Post....But Here I Go
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[ QUOTE ] As long as we continue building bases in their lands I'm sure they will want to attack us. You seem to not even understand why AQ attacks us. [/ QUOTE ] I don't give a damn why AQ hates us. I just want to kill them, burn their homes, and plow salt in their farm lands. [/ QUOTE ] The world is a great place with 2 sides wanting to kill each other. It's crazy how you can't see how similar you are to those you hate and despise in the Middle East.
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#108
09-20-2007, 09:14 PM
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Re: I Lost Track of This Post....But Here I Go
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I never liked Bush's PR to support the Iraq war. I favored the war because (a)Iraq violated the armistice many times and (2) they tried to kill Bush41 in 1993 when he visited Kuwait. [/ QUOTE ] Well I don't know what to tell you then. Even if we occupied Iraq the way you would have wanted to it still would have costed hundreds of thousands of lives and hundreds of billions of dollars. I don't see how you see invasion as +EV. [ QUOTE ] Installing a friendly Kurdish dictatorship would be a VAST improvement over the current situation. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, Saddam and OBL were friendly with us at one point too. The Kurds will only befriend us to the extent they can benefit from us. And then eventually we'll [censored] them over or they'll turn on us or start selling oil in euros and we'll invade them again. And the cycle of violence caused by US interventionalism continues. [ QUOTE ] CRUSH your enemies and enjoy the fruits of peace. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, peace for everyone except for, you know, the gobs of innocent people you just murdered. [ QUOTE ] Half-ass measures lead to prolong violence (aka Korea). This is not me talking.....this is the REAL LIFE talking... [/ QUOTE ] I'm not suggesting any half-ass measures. I'm suggesting leaving them [censored] alone. You wouldn't like it if China was installing bases in the US, or [censored] with our economy, what do you think is going to happen when we do it to others? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] This is the type of mindset that caused 3,000 Americans to die in the first place [/ QUOTE ] That is a risk I'm willing to take. [/ QUOTE ] Well that's nice and all that *you're* willing to take that risk on the behalf of 300 million other Americans, but I don't think we really enjoy having a systematic bloodlust over decades by a bunch of neocons end up getting us killed. [ QUOTE ] History supports my position. [/ QUOTE ] OK, so the convo in this sub-discussion has went- 1) They attacked us b/c we [censored] with them first 2) True, but history supports my position I don't get it. History explicity disagrees with your position. [ QUOTE ] Long stalemates result in massive loss of life. Victory results in less loss of life. Iran must be made an example of for their efforts to kill US soldiers. [/ QUOTE ] Guess what causes the least amount of loss of life? Not invading nations in the first place. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Invade them, establish more permanent bases, install dictators that a majority of the population will reject, cripple other nations economies. You know, do the exact same thing that pissed them off in the first place. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, that pretty much sums up what we should do to out enemies....these half-ass solutions have been a massive failure. [/ QUOTE ] Umm, what I wrote *is* what we've been doing in the middle east and elsewhere for decades. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Yeah, the way we punished Germany after WWI certainly did work out well. [/ QUOTE ]WW2 was cause by George Clemenceau(France) and Lloyd George(UK). If you wanted to design a treaty that would guarantee a second world war it would be hard to do much better than the Versaille Treaty. [/ QUOTE ] That's my point. The VT destroyed the German economy and took away their (percieved) soviergnty. It pissed off an entire nation of people that wouldn't have been our enemies, and ultimately enabled the cycle of violence to continue in the form of WW2. This is exactly what you are suggesting doing with Iran (crippling their economy, and limiting their ability to do what they want). [ QUOTE ] I don't give a damn why AQ hates us. [/ QUOTE ] See, this isn't a reasonable or logical response. This is a barbaric, uncivilized, primitive response. You can't do X, Y, Z horrible things to someone and then expect them not to defend themselves. The US government doesn't have the freedom to do what ever the [censored] it wants just because it's the US and you think you should. Once you start acting like civilized person and think beyong "OMG they're our enemies let's kill them" we can end the cycle of violence and bring about a more peaceful society for all. War is not peace.
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#109
09-20-2007, 09:42 PM
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Re: I Lost Track of This Post....But Here I Go
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#110
09-20-2007, 09:49 PM
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Re: I Lost Track of This Post....But Here I Go
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I don't give a damn why AQ hates us. [/ QUOTE ] See, this isn't a reasonable or logical response. This is a barbaric, uncivilized, primitive response. You can't do X, Y, Z horrible things to someone and then expect them not to defend themselves. The US government doesn't have the freedom to do what ever the [censored] it wants just because it's the US and you think you should. Once you start acting like civilized person and think beyong "OMG they're our enemies let's kill them" we can end the cycle of violence and bring about a more peaceful society for all. War is not peace. [/ QUOTE ] arguments about the war are pointless and have been for a while. people are ironclad in their opinions and are unwilling to change. that being said, the above statement is embarrassingly naive. what you are saying may apply to moderate muslims if there are any out there. as for the fanatics, let alone AQ, (i read today, in fact, about the AQ gang rape squads that are raping and slaughtering random iraqi women, all in the name of allah. i can look for the link if anyone is curious) there is no reason to understand them. there is no understanding them. they need to be removed from the planet with extreme prejudice, at every opportunity, every second, of every day. and that last line, "war is not peace", is, well... i am mortified by shame just to retype it. no offense to you, of course...
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