San Diego in an AC world

[pvn]

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At what arbitrary point in time does stolen property become yours?

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I don't think this is 100% determinable. Just like I don't think it's EVER possible to be 100% sure that someone is the rightful owner of any particular piece of property. You can get really, really close, but there will always be some uncertainty (how's that for an admission of non-utopianitude, for all those in the "zomg yootopian wackos" crowd?).

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My great-grandfather had a great hot dog factory. Your great-grandfather had some goons threaten my great-grandfather, harass him, and then eventually violently took over the firm from him. You've inherited that hot dog factory. Is it rightfully yours?

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Probably not. But it may not be yours, either.

Did your great-grandfather pursue his claim, or abandon it? If he pursued it, who did he bequeath the claim to?

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you haven't really denied that there's an abundance of private property in the US which is entirely "ill gotten".

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There's probably more outside of the US than inside. Why limit it to this?

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Okay? So then why claim adanthar's society is built "entirely" upon "ill gotten" gains.

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Are you serious? Because the current status quo is funded by these ill gotten gains which are taken from positively identifiable individuals RIGHT NOW - in an ONGOING process which both the victims and perpetrators are readily available. Usually people slam ACers for being impractical. Now you're upset that they aren't impractical enough?

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It doesn't seem to bother you all that much when *you're* the one who benefits from "ill-gotten gains".

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You haven't shown that the property I personally own is ill-gotten (hint, it's almost certainly not, this property was underwater 200 years ago, but don't worry about that).

Let's allow, just for ease, though, that everyone here is living on "stolen" property. None of the people here participated in the stealing, or were victims of it directly.

Some people advocate a continuation of theft in other slightly different forms now and into the future, while others oppose it. You don't seem to care, you just stop at "living on stolen land".

That doesn't bother you at all?

[pvn]

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How 'bout the AC'ers on here tell us how much this situation would be better for us in an AC world.

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Nobody would be forced to financially help bail them out or be jailed.

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And that makes us San Diegans better off how?

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See, andathar? All he's saying is "mine mine mine mine". [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[Boris]

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Before the Europeans came over here, I don't think the Native Americans even had a concept of ownership of land, so wouldn't it be hard for their ancestors to make a claim today based on that?

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Wrong.

[MiloMinderbinder]

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How 'bout the AC'ers on here tell us how much this situation would be better for us in an AC world.

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Nobody would be forced to financially help bail them out or be jailed.

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And that makes us San Diegans better off how?

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LOL. And not mugging a stranger helps me out how?

[PITTM]

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I will say this, in AC land no one would have been forced from their home against their will. I know this sounds stupid to you nannies who live and breathe by the principle of forcing citizens to do themselves good, but there are few things done by our government that more blatantly trample your personal liberty and personal responsibility than a forced evacuation.

natedogg

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top 10 most shortsighted things I have ever seen written. If they didn't do this we would see 100 stories in newspapers about how firefighters "left [the citizens] to die...". The biggest embarrassment are the people who refused to evacuate and then wasted rescuers time by needing to be rescued.

[Borodog]

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i.e. pvn is pointing out that *you* advocate a system based on the *current continuance* of massive, ongoing institutionalized theft

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But wait, I didn't *do* anything. In pvn's world, I'm only liable if I've literally put a gun to someone's head and taken their money right out of their hands. I don't do this, or anything like it.

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This is false. You are like a strawman machine today. Is it your claim that the person who hires the hitman is not guilty of murder? Is it your claim that this is pvn's claim?

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Hey, if someone can come up with a claim against me and demonstrated that I've done that, I'd be happy to return their stolen tax money.

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No, you wouldn't.

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But I don't collect taxes. I don't even own a gun. I've never knocked on your door with a tank and raided your bank account.

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Wait. I must have missed the part where any of the "ACists" were advocating that *you personally* be held accountable for the violent aggression undertaken by those in *government*. Unless you work for the government, which would explain A LOT.

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Oh, sure, I may have incidentally benefited from said "theft" - I like roads and public schools, just like pvn enjoys his stolen land. But neither of us have any obligation to actually rectify this.

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True. In what way is this making your point? What is your point again? Oh, that's right. To dodge the fact that you can't tell the difference between advocating theft today and saying that it's difficult to decide what to do about theft a hundred years ago.

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If you think you've been stolen from, then make your claim with the appropriate parties.

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Lol. You mean the ones that would decide the case? Do you honestly think you're showing anything with this?

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I'd have more details for you about how this kind of paradigm operates, but that's all I've been able to gather from pvn at this point. pvn, go ahead and explain further so Borodog can figure this out. I'm not exactly sure myself, so I can't really go further. But apparently Boro thinks this is pretty "unreal".

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Sarcasm only works if it makes sense. Otherwise you just look stupid.

[ElliotR]

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So San Siego is under some significant stress ATM and Goverment is providing a substantial response. How 'bout the AC'ers on here tell us how much this situation would be better for us in an AC world.

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Incidentally, why do you think it's awesome to force people to pay money and then let others decide who gets the help, if anyone?

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Because I believe that our system of government is a good solution to the problems of differing ideas of "morality" and dispute resolution.

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Why don't I force you to help feed some kid in Mexico City?

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If you do so through the political process, no problem.

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Why should I be forced to care more about some stranger in Cali than some stranger in Mexico? Just because some people generations ago drew a line somewhere on a map?

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In what way are you being forced to "care" about anything? Payment of taxes |= caring about what taxes are spent on, ldo.

[Boris]

The forced/strongly recommended evacuation order is a hugely inefficient policy decision by the local gov't. So much so that I don't think it would be difficult to argue that since ACLand would never make the order, in this particular case ACLand would be more efficient. The fact of the matter is that in the great majority of the area that was evacuated, the fuel load was such that home owners with access to water could have defended their property.

[pvn]

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I have brought up the fact the the single most sacrosanct thing in AC land is private property rights. Yet all their private property has been stolen in the first place from Native Americans. Somehow that is ok because noone exist anymore to file any grievances.

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What should be done in your opinion? Just mark all land that may have possibly been stolen in the past as "off limits"?

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This country has respect for private property BECAUSE it has a strong central government with laws that everyone must respect.

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If nobody had any respect for property before governemnt, how did that government come about then?

And if that government is so great at fostering respect for private property, why did it enable the great theft of property?

[Borodog]

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Why don't I force you to help kill some kid in Iraq?

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If you do so through the political process, no problem.

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Congratulations.