STTF SNG->cash thread - Page 11

Josem · #1 10-10-2007, 05:04 AM

Karp,

1) I'm thinking about starting up a datamining sevice for PartyPoker for you muppets who don't have reads and PT stats on your opponents

2) PF - probably a little on the loose side, but your cards are pretty, you're the 4th person in, and you close the betting, so it is fine

3) Flop - checking is very standard. You don't want to 3-bet, and if you get raised by the pre-flop raiser (as is likely) you're going to be putting a lot of money in while behind.

Since you don't have the best hand here, and have no reasonable expectation of everyone folding, betting is a bad idea.

4) Turn - you now probably have the best made hand, and have a flush draw as well. I'd probably bet marginally more ($11 or $12 into a $16 pot) but your bet is better than nothing.

5) Betting is LDO, calling seems LDO. If you lose flush over flush, so be it. Some flushes beat you (A, K, Q); Some flushes lose to you (T,8,6,5). You also beat weirdly played overpairs, bluffs, TT, JJ, 77 and 89, which all might play that way.

futuredoc85 · #2 10-10-2007, 06:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All uknowns. Comments on all streets, please.

Seat 1: Firetribe ( $100.75 )
Seat 3: G ster ( $114.09 )
Seat 5: Saage ( $81.25 )
Seat 6: R3sistance ( $98.50 )
Seat 8: bsasplayer ( $68.40 )
Seat 10: Mongoose92 ( $46.70 )
Mongoose92 posts Small Blind $0.50
Firetribe posts Big Blind $1

Dealing cards
Your cards 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [Firetribe]
G ster raises $4
Saage calls $4
R3sistance folds
bsasplayer folds
Mongoose92 calls $3.50
Firetribe calls $3

Dealing Flop 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Mongoose92 checks
Firetribe checks
G ster checks
Saage checks

Dealing Turn J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Mongoose92 checks
Firetribe bets $8
G ster folds
Saage calls $8
Mongoose92 folds

Dealing River 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Firetribe bets $18
Saage raises $69.25
Firetribe calls $51.25

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone else?

[/ QUOTE ]

arent there 2 diamonds in your hand, and 3 more on the board w/ 100bb stacks?

slimon · #3 10-11-2007, 08:57 PM

So I'm trying to understand pokerace stats more. What is a loose PFR? Does it work the same way as %ranges in sngpt? So if someone is 15% PFR does that mean he's raising 15% of his hand? What is loose, medium , and tight for PFR. What about Total agression postflop? What is loose, medium, and tight. For attempted to steal what position does that mean CO and button?

Josem · #4 10-11-2007, 09:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So I'm trying to understand pokerace stats more. What is a loose PFR? Does it work the same way as %ranges in sngpt?

[/ QUOTE ]

Basically, yes.

[ QUOTE ]
So if someone is 15% PFR does that mean he's raising 15% of his hands?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes.

It means that of the hands you have recorded for that player, 15% they raised preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
What is loose, medium , and tight for PFR.

[/ QUOTE ]
PFR is a measure of aggression, not looseness.

A good NL 6max player will have a PFR very close to their VPIP rate. It would be reasonable to aim (subject to differences in games etc.) for the difference to be between 3% and 6% or so.

eg, 24/20, 19/15, etc.

[ QUOTE ]
What about Total agression postflop? What is loose, medium, and tight.

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, that's a measure of aggression, not of looseness.

Be aware that a player's aggression will be affected by their VPIP - A player that plays 12/9, would often have an aggression factor of 4 or 5 or 6, because they're only playing premium hands preflop and would logically have premium hands post flop.

By contrast, a player who plays 50/10/2 could be equally aggressive post flop, because they're playing so much junk that they can't raise.

A 50/10/6 player would be a crazy maniac.

[ QUOTE ]
For attempted to steal what position does that mean CO and button?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes.

It means they've raised unopened pots from the CO/Button/SB.

slimon · #5 10-11-2007, 09:29 PM

So if someone has a high VPIP and low PFR that means he's a calling station? How do I expolit that? So I should raise less because he calls too much?

If someone has a high PFR I should be 3 betting them more or calling in position to take it down?

I'm thinking % to steal is a good indicator whether or not to 3 bet also. How high of a % does it need to be for you to be 3-betting him with crap? If I see him 4-bet me alot does that mean I should 3-bet him less and only with premium cards?

DevinLake · #6 10-11-2007, 09:43 PM

To 3-bet or not to 3-bet depends mostly on how often they call, not how often they raise.

slimon · #7 10-11-2007, 10:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
To 3-bet or not to 3-bet depends mostly on how often they call, not how often they raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you don't want to 3-bet people who are too loose or too tight then right? If they are too tight wouldn't they have something when you 3-bet them? When you 3-bet someone who is too loose you are going to need a good hand because he will call you?

jgunnip · #8 10-11-2007, 10:49 PM

Should I be folding these hands if my plan is basically to c/f the flop? First hand notice we're 190bb deep. Last two hands are against the same opponent. What should I read into the full pot cbet. It sucks playing these oop [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($67.65)
MP ($45.85)
CO ($23.05)
Button ($20.80)
Hero ($43.85)
BB ($25.85)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.25, 1 fold, CO calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.75, 1 fold, UTG raises to $6.35, CO folds, Button folds, Hero calls $4.45.

Flop: ($13.30) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $9.5, Hero folds.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($29.40)
MP ($32.65)
Hero ($40.05)
Button ($33.10)
SB ($10.30)
BB ($10.70)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.1, Button raises to $3.9, 2 folds, MP folds, Hero calls $2.80.

Flop: ($8.40) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $8, Hero folds.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($29.40)
UTG ($32.40)
Hero ($36.15)
CO ($37.20)
Button ($10.20)
SB ($10.45)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.1, CO raises to $3.9, 3 folds, UTG folds, Hero calls $2.80.

Flop: ($8.40) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $8.4, Hero folds.

jgunnip · #9 10-11-2007, 11:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So if someone has a high VPIP and low PFR that means he's a calling station? How do I expolit that? So I should raise less because he calls too much?

If someone has a high PFR I should be 3 betting them more or calling in position to take it down?

I'm thinking % to steal is a good indicator whether or not to 3 bet also. How high of a % does it need to be for you to be 3-betting him with crap? If I see him 4-bet me alot does that mean I should 3-bet him less and only with premium cards?

[/ QUOTE ]

VPIP and PFR are just preflop numbers. you could have a 50/0 that loves to raise every flop no matter what. This guy definitely wouldn't be a calling station. Aggressive preflop players generally have a PFR that is within 2-4% of their VPIP. Somebody whos VPIP is twice that of their PFR ie 18/9, 24/12, 34/17 tend to be more passive since they are calling as much as they are raising preflop. A 80/40 is just a maniac.

Not all players play postflop like they do preflop. some TAGs (16/14 ish) are quite passive postflop while some fish (40/2 ish) like to play the flop and turn very aggressively. Figuring these things out for different players is key. Postflop aggression gives you somewhat of an idea here. Also the fold/call/raise cbet stat is very helpful. Some players, both good and bad, will float (call you lightly) your cbets on the flop but fold a high percentage of the time on the river.

Another preflop thing comparing a players PFR with their attempt to steal %. Some players Stl% is twice that of their PFR, hence they are pretty tight and straightforward from UTG and UTG+1 (and most likely positionally aware), but are very aggressive in position. These of the types of players you might look to 3bet. Against a 20/18 players who steals 19% of the time you generally don't want to 3bet this player lightly, however against a 16/14 who steals 29% of the time you can probably widen your 3betting range.

As for 4 betting, at 25nl and 50nl you won't run into very many opponents who will 4 bet you light. I do it rarely when its obvious so aggrotard is 3betting me with a huge range. However you don't want to widen your four betting range too much. 88+ AJ+ would be a loose 4 betting range for the lower stakes.

Hope some of that made sense

jgunnip · #10 10-11-2007, 11:14 PM

I think checking behind on the river is standard against most players but against fishy players who float and call down multiple streets with very weak holdings am I missing value in these hands?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP ($8.85)
CO ($29.80)
Hero ($45.75)
SB ($34.20)
BB ($27.55)
UTG ($39.70)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, CO calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.1, 2 folds, CO calls $0.85.

Flop: ($2.55) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $1.85, CO calls $1.85.

Turn: ($6.25) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $3.85, CO calls $3.85.

River: ($13.95) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $13.95

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($18.30)
UTG ($40.85)
Hero ($35.95)
CO ($39.75)
Button ($10.15)
SB ($9.65)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $0.25.
Hero raises to $0.85, 2 folds, BB calls $0.75, 1 fold.

Flop: ($1.95) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.6, BB calls $1.60.

Turn: ($5.15) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3.25, BB calls $3.25.

River: ($11.65) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $11.65

View Poll Results: who likes
check/call	1	8.33%
bet/call	5	41.67%
bet/3b	5	41.67%
check/raise	1	8.33%
bet/fold (NITS)	0	0%
Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll