Somalia

[Borodog]

Lol. Only you guys could simultaneously conclude that something is no big deal and trivially true while simultaneously continuing to repudiate it and claim it's impossible. Statists are so entertaining.

Maybe it's "microanarchy" that is no big deal and trivially true but "macroanarchy" is somehow totally different, hence necessitating an Intelligent Monopolist to create all this order we see everywhere. Sure, this market thing could provide for cheesburgers and blue jeans and cars and TVs and title insurance and stuff, but for the really magical stuff, like laying down asphalt, or deciding whether or not killing and raping is wrong, why then you need a Government of the Gaps to produce these things that the poor incompetent boobs in the market can't.

Enjoy your demon-haunted world.

[Felz]

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Lol. Only you guys could simultaneously conclude that something is no big deal and trivially true while simultaneously continuing to repudiate it and claim it's impossible. Statists are so entertaining.

Maybe it's "microanarchy" that is no big deal and trivially true but "macroanarchy" is somehow totally different, hence necessitating an Intelligent Monopolist to create all this order we see everywhere. Sure, this market thing could provide for cheesburgers and blue jeans and cars and TVs and title insurance and stuff, but for the really magical stuff, like laying down asphalt, or deciding whether or not killing and raping is wrong, why then you need a Government of the Gaps to produce these things that the poor incompetent boobs in the market can't.

Enjoy your demon-haunted world.

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market failure vs. governmen failure - the endless cycle - joy of joys

the problem with some of us maybe is that we don't blindly trust in the market while you do - you want to believe

[Richard Tanner]

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the problem with some of us maybe is that we don't blindly trust in the market while you do - you want to believe

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I'm not an ACist but I trust the market 100%. It's people I don't trust.

Cody

[Zygote]

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Without bothering with the hyperbole, do you think this guy was better or worse at governing than the average Western state?


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as bad or better than this guy and this guy

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I simply don't feel like having to cite a bunch more sources on Somalia without running into somebody pulling the "but if it's really bad, it doesn't count" line.

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again, if it actually doesnt count i dont know why you fear this dissent.

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So, if we're going to talk about Somalia's successful transition to anarchy, I'd like to establish the ground rule that Somalia is, at the very least:

1)largely anarcho-capitalist;

2)claimed by AC-ers to be a more successful territory than it would otherwise have been with a functional state.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) I agree its largely anarchistic. I dont agree its largely capitalistic. I dont agree its fully or none of either.

2) there is no such thing as a functional state. if in theory there were a functional state this obviously already implies it meets the mark. this is what we dispute. in addition, empirically, as far as history has shown, all "functional states" that you probably think of exist only in areas with the largest economic freedom throughout their history.

We are saying, however, that if there is more government control, whether democratic, communal, or dictatorially structured, ceteris paribus, they will be worse off.

*edit in bold thanks to Borodog

[Borodog]

Ceteris paribus.

[Copernicus]

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the problem with some of us maybe is that we don't blindly trust in the market while you do - you want to believe

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I'm not an ACist but I trust the market 100%. It's people I don't trust.

Cody

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That statement can be read two ways, and Im not sure which you mean. "The market is made of people, so in an imperfect world even a near-perfect system like the market can fail", or "The market is such a good system it can overcome the failings of people". The former is reality imo.

[BigPoppa]

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Showing AC is better than a specific central government in no way demonstrates that AC is either good for society or superior to any other form of government. It would have to be the worst political system in the history of mankind to not be better than some governments.


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[ShakeZula06]

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So before when there were articles coming out describing how crappy Somalia was, Somalia wasn't considered a fair example of AC. But now that someone writes something positive, it is all of a sudden fair game? Sorry guys, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

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People in horrible poverty because the government spent all the wealth it could get it's hands on to attempt not to collapse: Not a problem with anarchocapitalism or libertarian philosophy, it's a problem with statism and the after effects of it.

People with very high time preferences and no government resorting to looting, murdering, and other non-voluntary acts as well as the UN and US also attempting to institute governments that the people refuse to recognize the legitmacy of all the while escalting the violence: Not an example of anarchocapitalism. There is government intervention and more importantly, there is little cooperation, free trade, property rights, contract, etc. Even if the government wasn't involved that would put the "A" in there, but the "C" is most definetly not.

People eventually deciding the cooperation>>>conflict, beginning to respect property rights, contracts, division of labor which as led to foriegn investments and higher standards of living then under the state and under their statist nieghbors: A success for anarchocapitalism, free markets, libertarian philosophy, and Austrian economics.

Governments don't create wealth, markets do. The only argument for a state is that without certain regulations of the state in the market the market would produce horrible outcomes. Now we see a stateless society (in fact one that has been historically stateless with the exception of when western powers have attempted to force it on them) creating wealth without government facilliating it.

Gone are the doomsday theories that say government oversight is needed or else the market (and society) collapses. Hopefully now the statists will agree that ACism is possible and sustainable, something MANY of the statists have disagreed with in the past.

[adanthar]

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I simply don't feel like having to cite a bunch more sources on Somalia without running into somebody pulling the "but if it's really bad, it doesn't count" line.

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again, if it actually doesnt count i dont know why you fear this dissent.

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I don't fear it, I just don't feel like wasting my time debating Somalia if, when it turns out that Somalia's worse off than it was, the goalposts get moved.

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Now we see a stateless society (in fact one that has been historically stateless with the exception of when western powers have attempted to force it on them) creating wealth without government facilliating it.

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Somalia = good example? Yes or no?

[mosdef]

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Hopefully now the statists will agree that ACism is possible and sustainable, something MANY of the statists have disagreed with in the past.

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Hold on buckaroo - you're ready to declare Somalia's socioeconomic environment "stable" already?