Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
(a pm which she ignored despite the fact that I got a read receipt)

[/ QUOTE ]


I was really hoping she was just away and was freaking out about this or was out getting drunk or something and that's why we hadn't heard from her with the FT e-mail.
But the read receipt you got certainly implies otherwise.

If so then there is every possibility of course that FT indeed did correctly catch someone doing something they weren't supposed to be doing and this wasn't some kind of a 'false-positive' so kudos to them for that I guess.
But they still handled this extremely badly and I don't think the ends justify all of the means in this situation.

[sillysal]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
A conclusion to this case has been reached and the player has been informed of our decision. While we can't share the details of the investigation with the community in general, we would be willing to share some findings with Mike Haven or some other respected mod.

Sean

[/ QUOTE ]

My post now changes from FTP froze my money to FTP STOLE my money.

I have been falsely accused, convicted and prosecuted without seeing a speck of evidence. FTP's decision is complete and final.

Please moderators, if you have any sense of fairness and a desire to be true to your community you need to contact me.

I have written each of you a letter and I hope to hear from you soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there a reason you opted not to simply ctrl-c, ctrl-v, post? It takes less than two seconds.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that SillySal has not cut and pasted the email that she recieved from Full Tilt (which would have taken all of five seconds) does not speak well for her case, especially considering the fact that I pm'd her and suggested she do it (a pm which she ignored despite the fact that I got a read receipt). If I had to hazard a guess I'd say that FT called her out on whatever it was that she was doing in their email to her, and thats why she doesn't want to post it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gee jamn220, sorry I didn't reply in your time frame. Needless to say this has taken a bit of my concentration and numerous phone calls to Attorneys I know and others who may be able to help me in getting my money back. Please forgive me for the time lapse.

After an extensive investigation into the activity on your account, we
have determined that you are using automated artificial intelligence
software to gain an advantage over other players.

This is a direct violation of clause #9 in our site terms at:
http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/site-terms

Please note that the length of the investigation was due to the numerous
characteristics that need to be assessed when making this type of
determination.

As previously mentioned, in order to protect the integrity of this
investigation and those in the future, we will not be releasing the
evidence in this case. We can tell you that during the course of the
investigation we reviewed and assessed detailed hand histories and
playing patterns to come to our final decision.

Your Full Tilt Poker account will remain permanently closed and the
remaining funds will be used to reimburse the victims of your use of
automated artificial intelligence software.

You are no longer welcome to play at Full Tilt Poker.

Regards,

Jeremy E
Security and Fraud
Full Tilt Poker

[Bobo Fett]

FTP fails again, assuming sillysal is being straight with us. If FTP has really seized her money, and has not told her ANYTHING about the reason why, then this is simply unacceptable and I'll never understand how people can see it any other way.

If a player really has done something wrong, then telling them what they were "found guilty" of can do no harm that I can think of. For example, if FT thought someone was botting, and they actually were, what harm could there possibly be if FT were to say "we are closing your account and seizing your money due to the use of illegal software"? If they actually WERE botting, they already know that. If they weren't, now they know what they're up against. Same thing goes for chargebacks, chip dumping, collusion, etc, etc.

*****

I've said it before, I'll say it again, FT (or any other site) needs to deal with account fraud one of two ways:

1) If for some reason they can offer NO explanation whatsoever, they are perfectly in their rights to close the account, give the player back his or her money, and tell them they are not welcome back. They have the right to refuse to do business with anyone, for any reason (aside from those against human rights of course IE discrimination, etc.). This is the case with pretty much any business.

2) If they plan on seizing a player's money, they need to provide the player with some way of defending themselves. They don't need to provide every detail of how they were caught, but a basic explanation of what rule they're said to have broken would be a good start.

*****

Now of course when I talk about what FT "has to do", or what their "rights" are, I understand that in reality FT can do pretty much whatever they want. They can give themselves all sorts of account-closing powers in their T&C's, and whether they meet the standards or laws of our country of residence or not, there isn't much we can do about it. When I speak of these things, I'm talking about the way FT, or any other site, SHOULD behave if they expect to be taken seriously by those who care about being treated fairly. To me, there is nothing "fair" about a site that can confiscate your money without ever telling you why or giving you an avenue of appeal. "Your money is ours, no we won't tell you why, decision is final, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out". Yes, FT CAN do this, just like I CAN choose to take my business elsewhere. As I have.

Edit to add: If FT HAS given sillysal some explanation, then obviously they are changing their ways, and much of what I've said above is rendered irrelevant. I might be jumping the gun, but given what we've seen in the past, I'm sorry to say that I doubt it.

[MicroBob]

One wonders what scottyy and others at Stars think of such public FT situations like this.
Even if she did do whatever it was FT thinks they handled this so badly that they garnered extremely negative publicity regardless.

Conversely, what does FT think of Stars' procedures? Do they think that Stars is just so lacking in security and that's why there are practically never these "FT froze my account forever and won't tell me why" type of situations?

The two sites appear to do things very differently and I just wonder if one side even gives the mildest hoot about how the other side does it.

[_dave_]

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FTP fails again, assuming sillysal is being straight with us.


[/ QUOTE ]

FTP fails even if Sal is a multi accounting, bot running, credit card frauding, chipdumping criminal mastermind imo.

IF found guilty of any of the above - or some other I didn't think of - what is the reasoning / possible benefit behind keeping secret the nature of the crime?

[Bobo Fett]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

FTP fails again, assuming sillysal is being straight with us.


[/ QUOTE ]


FTP fails even if Sal is a multi accounting, bot running, credit card frauding, chipdumping criminal mastermind imo.

IF found guilty of any of the above - or some other I didn't think of - what is the reasoning / possible benefit behind keeping secret the nature of the crime?

[/ QUOTE ]
EXACTLY.

[TheEye]

My sympathies if you are truly innocent sal...

But I was wondering that if, worst case scenario sal was botting, don't they have to warn the player about it prior to seizing any funds. I think stars has that policy in place that when you are using illegal software on their site you get a warning to remove that program from your pc and if they catch you again then more drastic measures are taken.

Not absolutely positive about this but that is my impression. Can anyone verify?

[Bobo Fett]

[ QUOTE ]
FTP fails again, assuming sillysal is being straight with us. If FTP has really seized her money, and has not told her ANYTHING about the reason why, then this is simply unacceptable and I'll never understand how people can see it any other way.
.
.
Blah
Blah
Blah
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Edit to add: If FT HAS given sillysal some explanation, then obviously they are changing their ways, and much of what I've said above is rendered irrelevant. I might be jumping the gun, but given what we've seen in the past, I'm sorry to say that I doubt it.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is part of my post from earlier I'm quoting. Obviously it would seem I did jump the gun, FT did actually finally tell sillysal the reason her funds were being seized. Although I was careful to qualify my comments with the fact that we didn't know if they had told her, I apologize to FT for partially jumping to this conclusion.

I still think there should be a way for sillysal (or anyone else in a similar situation) to appeal this. It will be interesting to see where this leads, if anywhere.

Mr. Gatorade must not have heard the news yet in his (anti) botcave...

[TheEye]

[ QUOTE ]
A conclusion to this case has been reached and the player has been informed of our decision. While we can't share the details of the investigation with the community in general, we would be willing to share some findings with Mike Haven or some other respected mod.

Sean

[/ QUOTE ]

So did they forward any info to a mod that can confirm at least whether there is any basis behind FTP's actions?

[Josem]

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So did they forward any info to a mod that can confirm at least whether there is any basis behind FTP's actions?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah!

3 hours ago, FTPSean said he'd be willing to share any info with mods. None have yet posted in this thread with any confirmation.


That doesn't bode well for FTP.....




Of course, as was just demonstrated, thinking more or less of people because they didn't reply instantly is absurd. Let's remember that the real world doesn't move on internet discussion forum speed.