Science Education in America: Why I'm Homeschooling My Kid in Science

[Phil153]

What more was there to say? The point about the study being flawed wasn't based on anything but your opinion. It's often referenced as an authoritative studies on this issue. If you have problems with it, you need to come up with something more than hand waving. The only reference you supplied was about public vs private pay levels...you certainly didn't reference anything debunking the government study.

The point about average pay is conceded. Private schools on average pay less to their teachers, so I concede that the argument about them being able to offer any salary to skilled teachers is irrelevant (except in the case of elite institutions, obviously).

Regardless, I appreciate such responses...I would like a lot more instead of AC hand waving and bluster.

[tame_deuces]

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But if we assume complete market control over the education system - with no 'state' to hold up a big contract saying 'education for everyone' hanging over their heads - shouldn't we assume that in areas where having a school would be a net profit loss that atleast in some cases a school would not exist?

I guess what I'm saying is that there would be not right for education? No attempt at equalizing the possibilities (which I'll admit is not always carried out in a perfect manner by the state, but atleast it is an attempt)?

Oh I'm certain grants, scholarships, community effort and similar could take some weight off - but all?

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A voluntary society is not Utopia. Everything you just mentioned applies to the current status quo. Determining the relative degrees of inequality in each system is a difficult empirical question that is hard to get good data on. However, historically it certainly seems like countries that most closely approximate free-market systems tend to come out on top.

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Afaik, the current status quo entails 'right to an education' which wouldn't be a right if you removed the state. Would removing that right give better education to a populace?

[BTirish]

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What more was there to say? The point about the study being flawed wasn't based on anything but your opinion. It's often referenced as an authoritative studies on this issue. If you have problems with it, you need to come up with something more than hand waving. The only reference you supplied was about public vs private pay levels...you certainly didn't reference anything debunking the government study.

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The study in question: what does it rely on? Does it rely exclusively on math and reading scores, as claimed by tolbiny? From the abstract you linked, it would appear so.

If so, is there more to education than just math and reading ability?

You cited the original study. If you're going to claim it as an authority, you should be able to do more than just call a reasonable objection against it "hand waving."

I'm not sure why tolbiny, or anyone else, necessarily must reference some "reputable" source claiming that there are problems with a study's methodology or the criteria according to which it makes its comparisons. I mean, for Pete's sake, the entire education industry is founded upon claims like those made by this study: do you expect to find many Education Doctoral dissertations or studies by institutions who have a vested interest in the public funding of education to put out many reports suggesting their own inferiority to anybody?

All that being said, my point earlier was that whether or not private schools have any significant edge in teaching secular academic subjects, it isn't this supposed advantage that explains the existence of most of these schools.

[luckyme]

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Anyway, I've ended up going on and on about what this thread really wasn't about in the first place. The blog post linked by OP didn't say: "That's it! Private school for you!" He decided to take his son's education into his own hands.

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I won't read the blog again, but didn't he simply take on the science class, where his son was learning well already, just marking poorly?
I'm not that impressed with his 'solution'...if I remember it correctly.

luckyme

[borisp]

Perhaps this is a direction that this thread has not explored...

It has been pointed out by numerous economists that teachers' unions are largely to blame for the overall "bloating" of the public education system. At present, there is no differential pay (meaning science teachers make the same as PE teachers), and it is virtually impossible to fire incompetent teachers, due to various safety nets that have arisen via various contract negotiations.

Here is a link to get you started: one site about unions

[tolbiny]

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What more was there to say? The point about the study being flawed wasn't based on anything but your opinion. It's often referenced as an authoritative studies on this issue. If you have problems with it, you need to come up with something more than hand waving. The only reference you supplied was about public vs private pay levels...you certainly didn't reference anything debunking the government study.

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Car A and Car B both hold a 4 star rating from Phil's rating agency. When you read the rating you see that they measured two metrics, gas efficiency and trunk space. You then further learn that Phil's rating agency called up the manufacturer of Car A and told them that they would be basing their ratings exclusively on gas efficiency and trunk space. Would you go around telling people that these two cars were "equal"?

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Sinking state standards are not the only unintended consequence of NCLB. Because the law holds schools accountable only in reading and math, there's growing evidence that schools are giving short shrift to other subjects. In a survey of 300 school districts conducted by the Center on Education Policy, 71% of local administrators admitted that this was the case in their elementary schools. Martin West of Brown University found that, on average, from 1999 to 2004, reading instruction gained 40 min. a week, while social studies and science lost about 17 min. and 23 min, respectively.

But the decline of science and social studies is often much steeper in schools struggling to end a record of failure. At Arizona Desert Elementary in San Luis, Ariz., students spend three hours of their 6 1/2-hr. day on literacy and 90 min. on arithmetic. Science is no longer taught as a stand-alone subject. "We had to find ways to embed it within the content of reading, writing and math," says principal Rafael Sanchez, with some regret. Social studies is handled the same way. The payoff for this laser-like attention to reading and math: the school went from failing in 2004 to making AYP and earning a high-flying "performing plus" designation by the Arizona department of education last year.

But reading about science isn't the same as incubating chick eggs and watching them hatch. And cutting out field trips to Civil War sites and museums to drill social studies vocabulary words is not the way to build a love of history. Hands-on activities are, for many kids, the best part of school, the part that keeps them engaged. The scope of education isn't supposed to be based on what's tested; it's the other way around, says P. David Pearson, dean of the University of California, Berkeley, graduate school of education. "Never send a test out to do a curriculum's job," he says.

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From the Time article on NCLB

Large scale testing of science scores
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The point about average pay is conceded. Private schools on average pay less to their teachers, so I concede that the argument about them being able to offer any salary to skilled teachers is irrelevant

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Actually it's not irrelevant. The existence of public schools as they are makes it harder for private schools to access resources, your cream of the crop argument could very well be valid, only in the opposite direction. Private schools have to work within the system set up by public schools. If person A wants to be a teacher odds are they are going to go through the process that will allow them to teach in the public school system which employs ~90% of teachers. If you are going to write a textbook for fifth graders you are going to focus on the curriculum that has a potential 90% market share, not a 10% one.

[oe39]

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But you have a PhD in Astrophysics. How many parents would you think are remotely able to teach their kid science?

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I know absolutely nothing about cobbling, yet I manage to procure top quality shoes. I know absolutely nothing about cattle ranching, yet I manage to procure top quality steak. I know absolutely nothing about building a car, yet I manage to procure one I like very much. I know nothing about making clothing, cell phones, televisions, yet I can get all. I don't have to mow my own lawn, change my own oil, or fix my own roof. I trust you see the pattern.

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Do you think that that article represents something that cannot be fixed?

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It can be easily fixed. End the government school monopoly.

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if only it were possible to start a private school

[pvn]

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Oh i guess you where talking about private schools. What makes you think that the same thing won't happen there?

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It very well might. And in fact, some people may want such an outcome. But in this case, those who don't want it won't be forced to pay for it, and can go elsewhere to procure the service they desire.

[pvn]

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My problem is that I'm seeing more of threads that go something like what we see here.

OP: -Link- "Blah blah blah"

Responder: What about -link- "Blah blah blah?"

OP: Stop trolling me.

Responder: I'm not trolling you. I'll say again what about this point?

OP: You're a troll.

etc. etc. etc.

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But that isn't what happened in this thread.

It was more like this:

OP: (link) blah blah blah
Responder 1: what about XYZ?
OP: ABC.
Responder 2: OH NOES NOT THE ABC AGAIN!?!
OP: STFU troll

[pvn]

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By supporting the state system, you are supporting limiting my choices. In order to justify this, you need to show that it is the only possible way to provide quality information.

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I think we can accept that we will never satisfy your subjective sense of justice. Why do we "need" to do this?

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Because you're not a thug, hopefully. Do you believe that might-makes-status-quo is the end-all-be-all of what we should consider, examine, and question?

If you don't see why you "need" to do this, then basically what you're saying is that you're going to do whatever you can get away with and until someone else can stop you, tough [censored].

Is that what you are trying to tell us?