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#91
08-23-2007, 01:32 AM
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Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Why would you ever make this "backraise" with QQ if you're going to fold to a shove. [/ QUOTE ] because there is 7kish in dead $ in the middle and i'd like to take it down preflop without showdown? what am i missing here? dlpnyc21 [/ QUOTE ] So why does it matter that you have QQ if you're folding to a shove? You could have any two and reraise / fold here, no? Tell me, is your reraise for value or is it a bluff? If it's a bluff, what the hell better hands are folding? And if it's for value, then it really should be a no brainer call. <snip> Anyways David, you obviously have great intuition, but I think your logic for hands could use a little work. [/ QUOTE ] It can certainly both be a raise for value AND fold to a shove. There is no logical fallacy there. 
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#93
08-23-2007, 01:56 AM
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Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Why would you ever make this "backraise" with QQ if you're going to fold to a shove. [/ QUOTE ] because there is 7kish in dead $ in the middle and i'd like to take it down preflop without showdown? what am i missing here? dlpnyc21 [/ QUOTE ] So why does it matter that you have QQ if you're folding to a shove? You could have any two and reraise / fold here, no? Tell me, is your reraise for value or is it a bluff? If it's a bluff, what the hell better hands are folding? And if it's for value, then it really should be a no brainer call. <snip> Anyways David, you obviously have great intuition, but I think your logic for hands could use a little work. [/ QUOTE ] It can certainly both be a raise for value AND fold to a shove. There is no logical fallacy there. [/ QUOTE ] That's true, there are situations where it makes perfect sense to raise for value and fold to a shove, but that usually is when you rarely expect to get shoved on, hence when it happens you are almost always beat. It's also not really applicable to preflop situations.
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#94
08-23-2007, 08:09 AM
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Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
[ QUOTE ] thanks for showing me the odds though, that was tough. dlpnyc21 [/ QUOTE ] Sigh. I can't believe you ask for advice, get a great response from somebody that could easily not be bothered, and then act so arrogant.
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#96
08-23-2007, 01:39 PM
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Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I think you're missing that when you rr w QQ he's either folding or shoving, so your raise/fold line turns your hand into a bluff and puts you in a horrible situation should he shove. [/ QUOTE ] not really. First of all, I don't mind him folding hands like AQ, AJ, nor do I mind him folding his junky suited connector or small pocket pair hands. I would MUCH rather prefer to take the 7k in the middle then see a flop 5 ways with QQ having no idea where I am in the hand. Also, as other people in this thread have pointed out, he could shove JJ/AK (because my hand looks fishy), so my hand doesn't turn completely into a bluff, so I'm not really sure what you're saying. dlpnyc21 [/ QUOTE ] I don't know how you have gotten away for so long with what appears to be a pretty basic lack of understanding of the fundamental theorem of poker. You don't have to understand FTOP itself, but mainly what it means. You clearly do not want him to fold AQ or suited connectors here. If you think you do, then you have completely the wrong mindset, and are not playing strictly for EV. David, when you reraise to 10k straight with even the possibility of folding to a shove, you completely turn your QQ into 72o. I don't know how to explain it any better than this: When you make the decision to play 2nd hand low here, it is because the strength of your hand is completely disguised and your opponent will not put QQ at the top of your range, or in your range at all. By reraising you are almost always going to face a shove or a fold. When he reshoves back to you, you are getting what odds? There is 4500 dead money in the pot, plus your 10k, making it 14500, and villain sticks in 24k. so 38500 and you have to call 14k more. 38500-14000= better than 2.6 - 1 or so, right? vs a range of AK QQ KK AA, QQ is 40%! You don't even need 2-1, let alone 2.6-1. Also, is villain really ever flatting your 10k, leaving himself 14k into a pot of 25k with a hand worse than QQ??? If so you prob are sitting in the greatest game of all time, and shouldn't ever leave unless your mother is on her deathbed or something. [/ QUOTE ] look, i can do math, i understand the price i laid myself when i backraised. again, you missed the point like most other posters. folding is not good once i make it 10k. however, the general principle of the backraise and the question of the post was whether or not this was an effective strategy (ie, get it all in pre for 50k with qq)--given the circumstances of the hand. i believe i take down the pot a fair amount of time, but i also think i get it in as a flip or a big dog a lot, too. is this my goal in deep stack nl games? in this specific situation, what was the best play? that's what i'm looking for. i know the math and the price i laid myself once i made the raise--your point is trivial. the deeper theoretical questions of deep-stack PREFLOP nl play is what i was trying to get after...generally the disucssion i try and generate has been more productive than this hand--perhaps this was merely situationally specific. thanks for showing me the odds though, that was tough. dlpnyc21 [/ QUOTE ] Alrighty david, I guess when you asked "call or fold" you actually meant, "what do you think of my theoretical line?" edit: I don't even know why I am responding seriously anymore... you asked a q and i answered it... quite well if i do say so myself. Don't ask a simple question of you are going to get offended w/ the simple answer. You are coming off as a pretty big jerk in this thread. You do realize, you asked if you should call or fold right?
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#98
08-23-2007, 02:43 PM
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Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
anskizzle my nizzle
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#100
08-23-2007, 10:23 PM
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Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
anksy, i think you answered the question of whether to call or fold after I made it 10k well, I don't dispute that. However, that question had been answered several times on the thread already. You might have just read the OP and not the responses. I wanted to move the discussion towards one of the idea of getting QQ all in pre for 50k there (500bb+ pre)--and what people thouhgt of my line for doing so. I guess that's not going to happen, but it's cool to keep talking about calling once I raise to 10k getting 2.ish -1 or whatever. Sorry to come off as a douche, thanks for answering the Q, was a good response, as was cero's. Cheers,
dlpnyc21
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