(Simple?) 3-bet Scenario

[Daut44]

oh just noticed stingers post, agree 100% that against a tighter player 88 and 75s are better because KJ is likely to be dominated

[hellmuth88]

88>>>kj>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>75>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>a2

88 in position = printing money

[tsarast]

Against a reasonably tight player, I agree with Stinger's post of 88>75... but I disagree with the common consensus that KJo is better then A2s for the last two spots. KJo is absolute trash oop against a tight reraiser, and I don't think you can ever feel comfortable putting in another 80+ bbs with top pair on a K high or J high board. If JK is good say on a J-high flop (they have AK, KQ, AQ, or TT/99) they will usually fold to a crai on the flop, and call when you are beat... etc... and at least with A2s you can flop an ace and not have to stick it all in when beat (usu...), or if you flop a flush draw you can safely stick it in 11% of the time without losing too much EV when called. I think its pretty obv that A2 suited >>> KJo oop here against a tight reraiser... and, in the parlance of our times (and posts...) "it's not even close!"

[tsarast]

that said, how often do you really call oop with KJo or A2 suited? I try to convince myself everyday that I like money, and that I shouldn't do these things unless sex is involved.

[The Man]

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i think the more aggro and the more shorthanded the game is, you'd prefer to have a hand like KJ where you can flop a pair and just say "f-it" and get it in.

i agree w/ kod tho in fuller games

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agree

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Why would you ever say F-it and get it in... you think if the flop is Jxx someones folding JJ+?

I think KJo is the worst hand here because you can be dominated.

You are almost never doominated with 75s. 88 by far is the best. then 75s then A2s then KJo.

Edit: Sorry I thought we were calling the raise, not making it. Im a donk

[panzerocks4]

i really dont understand why so many people are putting high value on kj i feel like if you flop a k or j you still could be easily dominated and every other flop is trash. a2 is ovious trash no need to explain that. i feel 75 really isnt that bad here. theres so many semibluff sitautions on the flop and you can always flop big. 88 i feel is the best. i believe its the hand where you have to least deal with a hard descion. if he pushes its a lot easier to fold or call then with a hand like kj when you flop a king.

88,75,kj,a2

[FiSheYe]

Just cuz you don't understand it doesn't mean you do not need to read what Nosebleedexperts have to say..
Those games are extremely agressive ... You will bet/call if you hit a straightdraw, Toppair with J or K and of course any kind of OESD+Pair. In these games your opponent will check-raise you on the flop with overpairs, toppair, combodraws, flushdraws, straightdraws, midpairs, backdoordraws, overcards or occasionally pure air without overs. Given the amount of agression you cannot lay down toppair with such a good kicker against them, therefore KJ's domination isn't much of a concern to you. Plus if you hit a pair of jacks you have the 2nd best kicker, but if you hit a pair of Kings, there is mostly only KQ dominating your holding, because AK would have 4bet/shoved you OOP most of the time. Good players will check raise boards like K72/J72 rainbow lightly with almost anything, because they know you won't have a king often enough and might lay down a big pair .

I think we're at a point where Mr Galfond could come to life and explain his thought process, because that thread exist long enough now!

[panzerocks4]

fisheye i really think your not taking into the fact that the oppenet called a big reraise. also how can you not put him on ak i really dont think ak would 4bet push where at best your racing against high pairs. king jack seems like a hand where you never get showdown value. if your getting it in on king high board with kj and get called your usually dominated.

[tagtastic]

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fisheye i really think your not taking into the fact that the oppenet called a big reraise. also how can you not put him on ak i really dont think ak would 4bet push where at best your racing against high pairs. king jack seems like a hand where you never get showdown value. if your getting it in on king high board with kj and get called your usually dominated.

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yeah... ak never 4bet pushes, lol.

[BaddTag]

panzer you may be in the wrong forum