Weighty issue I feel powerless to handle (Longest Post Ever OMG)

[Kneel B4 Zod]

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That thread was intended to be a funny example of "wacky" things women say to guys and their "irrational arguments," and by funny I mean funny in a sort of King Of Queens/Everybody Loves Raymond way where you don't really get mad at them but you like sounding frustrated by the whole Mars-Venus men-women divide.

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I think that's kind of a core problem here. you think it's cute or possibly a standard guy/girl thing, but it's actually significant evidence of 'crazy'. I mean my GF uses too much ketchup on her french fries, and that's a cute thing that I make fun of, but it doesn't make her crazy. it means she likes ketchup too much. that's a lot different than her being 'cute' by goading me into jealousy, which is a sign of a manipulative person that you're probably better off not involved with.

I think it's also a possibility that a girl who uses manipulative means to achieve her wants is likely to use them in all kinds of situations. For instance, to garner attention or drama from you b/c of a new rich man. I'm not saying she is making this up or outright lying, but you need to be careful around manipulative people like this. b/c it's certainly a possibility that this story is not all she claims it to be.

on top of this, you've known her for 1 month. there is a finite amount of trust I'm willing to put in anyone I've known for 1 month.

[MusashiStyle]

i would suggest you talk to your girlfriend and try to give her confidence to make the best decision she can.
Chinese culture is a little different from americans, but I don't think there's any need for her to sacrifice her life, her happiness for something artificial like money (or religion!).
The decision has to be made by her and it's best for her not to be fearful but to make the decision and live with the risks of hurting her family or whoever.

[gumpzilla]

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I think it's also a possibility that a girl who uses manipulative means to achieve her wants is likely to use them in all kinds of situations. For instance, to garner attention or drama from you b/c of a new rich man. I'm not saying she is making this up or outright lying, but you need to be careful around manipulative people like this. b/c it's certainly a possibility that this story is not all she claims it to be.

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I hadn't considered this but this is an excellent point. One that is impossible to hear, though.

[uclaben]

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Yes, I've urged her to talk to her mom, but she reiterates that saying such a thing would come across to her mother as being selfish and ignoring the family's best interests. I don't think she's ever had a heart-to-heart with her mother her entire life (actually, for the first 5 years of her life, "May" was raised by her grandmother).

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This is bad news for your chances.

Again, I realize we don't know all the information - forgive me if my "fixer" theory was incorrect. But at a certain point, this game is either going to go or its not. Is she going to tell her crazy-ass parents, "I'm 27 and I'm doing what I want," or is she more concerned with her family's honor? If it's the latter, it's never going to work. It can't.

It would be one thing if she was crazy Chinese. It would be another if she was crazy Catholic. The fact that her family is both, and you're neither, is just killing you here.

[SuitedSixes]

PJ-
Like others have said, May is at a defining moment of her life and whatever path she chooses here will dictate the rest of her life with her family and how they treat her.

To you, and anyone else in a multicultural relationship, I advise that you take seriously the impact that will have on the rest of your life together. My ex-wife is from Mexico, and neither of us had any idea how difficult is would be to share a life with someone with a completley different upbringing.

I like your idea of living with her first, but that will be an in the face disrespect to her mother and her Catholic beliefs, so be careful.

[private joker]

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I like your idea of living with her first, but that will be an in the face disrespect to her mother and her Catholic beliefs, so be careful.

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FWIW, she did live with her last boyfriend for 3 years, and I guess the fact that her mom didn't disown her for that means that she's probably somewhat forgiving in the living-in-sin department (or maybe she wasn't forgiving; I haven't probed into the dynamic between her mom and her ex). But that guy was Chinese.

[n.s.]

A couple of random thoughts to consider (sorry if these have all been said before, I skimmed the thread).

In chinese culture, it's pretty much expected that the children will take care of their parents when they get old. This isn't taking care of the american sense (providing for their care and being around) - it amounts to financially supporting them and having them move into the kid's house. In return, the parents will often do a lot of the child-rearing, so that the kid can continue to work (your gf being raised by her grandmother is very common). The idea of disobeying her parents will always be heartbreaking for your gf, but if she can plan to be able to financially support them (many years down the road) it will make it easier. If she can say "I'll never marry that old man, but I will always take of you, no matter what." she may be able to find some sort of mental peace about the whole thing. For a lot of chinese families, expressing love for a family member means doing what you think is best for them, not what makes them happy (i.e. May's mom) - May can employ this idea as well. You didn't mention what May's financial situation is like, but that's unfortunately rather important to the whole thing. Obviously if you are going to make yourself a permanent part of the picture, then your financial situation matters as well.

As other's have said, going through the father may be the way to go. If he has a soft spot for his daughter and sees how much it would hurt her to marry the old guy he may call it off. The mother won't like it, but she's not really going to be able to go against him.

A lot of fundamentalist christians are actually quite sympathetic towards jews - look at how much the religious right supports Israel right now (although catholics probably less so). There's a chance the mother would be more likely to accept you if you play up your Judaism (pretend to be practicing), instead of downplaying it.

[MikeNaked]

Go see Friar Laurence. That guy's got some great ideas.

[MicroBob]

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I like your idea of living with her first, but that will be an in the face disrespect to her mother and her Catholic beliefs, so be careful.

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FWIW, she did live with her last boyfriend for 3 years, and I guess the fact that her mom didn't disown her for that means that she's probably somewhat forgiving in the living-in-sin department (or maybe she wasn't forgiving; I haven't probed into the dynamic between her mom and her ex). But that guy was Chinese.

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I think with some cultures there is the FEAR there that the whole world will come to an end if they go against the grain.
But, in the end, most of the time the family is more forgiving than the child thinks they will be.

I don't know a thing about Chinese or any other cultures and this is really just guessing on my part.
But it very much seems that the idea of, "I can't do that because I will be completely disowned" is what both parties THINK at the time.

The kid thinks they really will be disowned if they do such a thing and the parents KNOW that they would disown their kid if they did.
But if it actually happens (kid is prepared to be disowned) then the parents actually realize they can't disown their own child and they learn to forgive somewhat and move on.

Seems like a lot of cultures have these big dramatic situations, "You are dead to me!! I am never speaking to you again!!" and that doesn't happen nearly as often as the supposed promise.

Maybe I watch too many movies. But that's my impression.

My GF is like this with her parents sometimes.
"Oh there's no way I can directly confront them like that."
But, in fact, I can see that they clearly listen to her voice and respect her opinion far more than she realizes they do.

With the proper support then PERHAPS May can confront her Mom about this. It will be a big step for her to do this but it probably needs to be done.

Isn't there a scene like this in Joy Luck Club where the daughter FINALLY speaks to her overpowering mother? I think so but it's been awhile.

Some of the texting behavior and other stuff almost has me more concerned though.
always saying 'I love you' all the time? I mean I know you're really in love and all and it's still a relationship that's just starting. I've been there. But this seems excessive.
And then occasionally texting or calling you about giving some dude her phone #?
Yiikes. Not good.

Hopefully she grows out of some of those behaviors super-fast.

[yad]

PJ,
I come from an Indian background, so I have some familiarity with the sort pressures that May is probably feeling. I have lots of friends and family who have been faced with this sort of issue. My experience is that basically three things can happen from this point:

1. She can be the good chinese daughter and do what her family wants.

2. She can convince her family to come to accept her choices.

3. She can break from her family, do what she wants, and be ostracized from them and her culture for the rest of her life.

I know people who have taken each of these options. Among the people I know, option 3 is hands down the worst. Family and culture are just too important to most people who have grown up in this sort of environment for them to ever be happy cut off from them. The folks I know have all come to resent their husband or wife, for whom they gave up all this -- they may know this is unfair, but can't help it. This obviously leads to unhappiness all around and is a disaster.

The folks I know who have taken option 1 are unhappy about it for a while, but eventually come to accept and live reasonably happily in their new situation.

But obviously option 2 is the best. My father managed this in marrying my mother, as did one of my cousins. Obviously this depends on a number of things outside of your or even her control -- some families are just so intolerant that there's nothing anybody can do to get them to accept this. But if May is determined and persistent enough, and you are willing to really step up, you can probably manage this.

Here obviously May is most important. She'll have to explain her feelings and why her choices can fit with the family, and will have to do so again and again in the face of a lot of arguments. She has to stay respectful and understanding of her parents' position while she does all this.

Here you can also play a big role. It will help a lot if you come from a good family. Your parents can also get involved. Basically, May will have to tell her parents about you. You will have to meet them and impress them -- both as a good person who understands the importance of family and who has good intentions for their daughter, and as someone with a bright successful future ahead of them (to support May and them in their old age). Your own family background -- especially how close you are with your extended family, your relationship with your parents and their relationship to the rest of your family, and what they do/how successful they are will also be very important. Eventually having your parents and close relatives include her parents in some of their own family functions can be the thing that closes the deal. If you come from a large and traditional Jewish family, this could be a very positive thing from their point of view.

Obviously there is no way you can do any of this if you are not extremely serious about this girl. Not to say you have to be absolutely sure you will marry her, but you better be very seriously considering it at the least.