Wynn 10k Poker Classic Hand

[Prime Time]

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I raised to 6.5k planning to fold to a reraise.

Villain pondered for ~10 seconds, and said something like, "Wow, I guess I'm paying off Seven's full here" and called.

He had 68 and rivered his boat.

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This sounds like he would not be paying off w/ a naked 6.
Villain played perfectly.
Which is ok and happens.

[Howard Treesong]

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The board is paired, there is a 2-flush and you have the low end of the straight draw, so fold to the flop raise.

Avoid the problem in the first place by not limping this hand in early position. This hand is fine to limp behind in late position. In early position, I don't see a lot of value in seeing a flop with 54s. This hand plays much better when raised, as you can misrepresent it. So I say raise or fold preflop. If you can't raise it for fear of a reraise, then fold.

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Betgo, I don't think you've ever played a deepstack live tournament before. They are vastly different from the online tourneys you are used to.

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I may be out of line here by making a superobvious point, but the debate about it suggests otherwise. Phrased differently, I think ZJ is saying that superdeep stacks raise implied odds to the point where it's just fine to limp with 54s EP if there's a good shot of it getting limped around, as happened here.

[betgo]

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The board is paired, there is a 2-flush and you have the low end of the straight draw, so fold to the flop raise.

Avoid the problem in the first place by not limping this hand in early position. This hand is fine to limp behind in late position. In early position, I don't see a lot of value in seeing a flop with 54s. This hand plays much better when raised, as you can misrepresent it. So I say raise or fold preflop. If you can't raise it for fear of a reraise, then fold.

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Betgo, I don't think you've ever played a deepstack live tournament before. They are vastly different from the online tourneys you are used to.

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I may be out of line here by making a superobvious point, but the debate about it suggests otherwise. Phrased differently, I think ZJ is saying that superdeep stacks raise implied odds to the point where it's just fine to limp with 54s EP if there's a good shot of it getting limped around, as happened here.

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You and Z are right. The limp is probably good with 100xBB, and a raise might just be a pot builder, which is really not what you want.

I still like a fold on the flop or turn though. This is an awfully weak draw. 5 high and the low end of an open ended straight draw with a 2-flush and paired board. Maybe you can outplay villain or something, but this is not a good situation.

[Howard Treesong]

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The board is paired, there is a 2-flush and you have the low end of the straight draw, so fold to the flop raise.

Avoid the problem in the first place by not limping this hand in early position. This hand is fine to limp behind in late position. In early position, I don't see a lot of value in seeing a flop with 54s. This hand plays much better when raised, as you can misrepresent it. So I say raise or fold preflop. If you can't raise it for fear of a reraise, then fold.

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Betgo, I don't think you've ever played a deepstack live tournament before. They are vastly different from the online tourneys you are used to.

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I may be out of line here by making a superobvious point, but the debate about it suggests otherwise. Phrased differently, I think ZJ is saying that superdeep stacks raise implied odds to the point where it's just fine to limp with 54s EP if there's a good shot of it getting limped around, as happened here.

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You and Z are right. The limp is probably good with 100xBB, and a raise might just be a pot builder, which is really not what you want.

I still like a fold on the flop or turn though. This is an awfully weak draw. 5 high and the low end of an open ended straight draw with a 2-flush and paired board. Maybe you can outplay villain or something, but this is not a good situation.

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Let me see if I can put a finer point on it: my trouble with the hand is that an 8 is a really ambiguous card that puts Z to a difficult decision. Half of his draw is within the suited connector range of the 6, and is thus in the range of cards that boats the enemy. I do think Z played the river well, presuming the enemy will call on a dry 6 like 56 or A6.

Thus, also I like ZJ's flop bet. It's primarily informational. When it comes back at 1400, that mission is accomplished and the raiser is absolutely representing a 6. I discount 67 here (because he'd be more likely to smooth call) but 65 64 68 and A6 are all possibilities, the latter two of which are live and therefore somewhat more likely.

I might drop this to the flop raise on the theory that there are too many tough decisions on the tree going forward. I'm not great, however, at thinking through complex situations like this on the fly and often get myself into trouble by trying to do just that.

[WarDekar]

I have a question for ZJ, or anyone else:

Assume you had 77. What's your play on the river with the action to you?

I really have to wonder what Villain is thinking on this, if you had pushed river is he calling? I don't see how he would lay it down, but he certainly didn't seem to like calling even the small raise.

[Howard Treesong]

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I have a question for ZJ, or anyone else:

Assume you had 77. What's your play on the river with the action to you?

I really have to wonder what Villain is thinking on this, if you had pushed river is he calling? I don't see how he would lay it down, but he certainly didn't seem to like calling even the small raise.

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Well that spot means there are waaaaay more hands I can beat that are calling me (all of the six-boats), so I am betting the maximum amount I think he'll call. Pushing often creates the appearance of a bluff, so I'd eschew the midrange value bets and simply stack off here.

[ZeeJustin]

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Half of his draw is within the suited connector range of the 6,

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This is completely irrelevant. There was no raise before the flop, and villain checked in the BB, so any hand with a six in it is equally likely (assuming he wouldn't raise any of those hands).

[ZeeJustin]

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I raised to 6.5k planning to fold to a reraise.

Villain pondered for ~10 seconds, and said something like, "Wow, I guess I'm paying off Seven's full here" and called.

He had 68 and rivered his boat.

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This sounds like he would not be paying off w/ a naked 6.
Villain played perfectly.
Which is ok and happens.

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Villain was pondering a raise, not a fold.

He would have called that small bet with 69 for sure. He's getting 234923493-1.

[ZeeJustin]

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Assume you had 77. What's your play on the river with the action to you?

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Raise a similar amount and call a shove.

In hindsight this might be a mistake since he didn't reraise with 68, but I assumed he would.

[ZeeJustin]

FWIW, if the river was the 9 of clubs, and he led into me for 3,000, I would have shoved, and I am assuming he would have folded.