New Fight Question

[SNOWBALL]

Your post about the navy seal's training regimen only proves that they would be significant favorites over the average fighter. However, it only proves that to the extent that it proves they would be significant favorites over the average person at hitting a baseball or rowing a boat, or playing tennis.

Very strong physical fitness is great for fighting, but fighting is still a very complicated art and science. Learning the craft of it takes a long time and a lot of focus. There really almost no way that the top navy seal is going to be a favorite over anyone on this list except for MAYBE the best street fighter. That is pretty doubtful also.

You have to remember we're talking about the best of a population that is more than a few billion (I'm assuming by streetfighter we just mean someone who doesn't fit in any of the other categories but fights anyway) versus the best of a population that is maybe less than 1k. Initial populations theory shows that your position is a huge dog to be valid. This is in spite of the fact that your argument fails to demonstrate the hand to hand combat training that navy seals receive.

[aceupthepants]

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this is the #1 fighter in the world
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saX844eJnoc

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Maybe I was more open minded about it when it was being discussed earlier, but THIS is the best fighter in the world?!?

What does 'shoot fighting' mean? Is that where you lunge for the legs and immediately try to take the opponent down?

I ask because as soon as he launched in with one of these wild flailing punch attacks, even a GOOD boxer would not only end the fight but probably his career.

I mean, I understand how they are successful at UFC, and how the strict kung fu/taekwondo guys fall short in preventing their takedown/submission/ground attacks, but Iron Mike in his prime would absolutely murder this dood in a matter of seconds.

I know i'm missing something. What am I missing?

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Iron mike would destroy him in a boxing match. But Fedor trained in boxing a very good grappler. It's hard to box from the clinch and even harder to box from your back. Boxing is one dimensional, MMA is three.

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What i'm saying/asking is that aren't MMA guys really just one dimensional as well when it comes down to it? Ground/submission/grappling attacks? That is all the same thing, right?

I guess the assumption that is the crux of the debate is how easy is it for the grappler to get the other guy on the ground? I've watched UFC fights and have seen how easy it is in certain cases, but many of these are against other grapplers who don't mind taking it to the ground?

We have to discount the early UFC debacles with half-ass boxers and kung fu doods getting annihilated.

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Its extremely easy for a grappler to takedown someone who has no grappling experience. Now if each person is skilled in take down defense things get much tougher.

[SNOWBALL]

UFC Champion: 45%
Martial artist:35%
Boxer: 10%
Streetfighter: 6%
Navy seal: 4%

[blackize]

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I have to respect what people say how about the various skills of fighters, as it's something I know little about, but few seem to realize how deadly a good, strong boxer's punch is.

Not to get too long-winded, but the difference in just being able to throw a punch and have it hit exactly where you want it to opposed to being a few centimeters off is monumental. One of the many scientific things that give it the name 'sweet science'.

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Yeah boxers can hit really really hard, but to deliver a knockout punch you really need a bit of a windup and enough range between you and the other fighter to have maximum effectiveness. A UFC fighter can slink in real low real fast and get in tight before the boxer can land a solid blow. Not to mention that some of those UFC guys are monsters with kicks and knees both of which a boxer isn't trained to defend against.

[SNOWBALL]

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Yeah boxers can hit really really hard, but to deliver a knockout punch you really need a bit of a windup and enough range between you and the other fighter to have maximum effectiveness. A UFC fighter can slink in real low real fast and get in tight before the boxer can land a solid blow. Not to mention that some of those UFC guys are monsters with kicks and knees both of which a boxer isn't trained to defend against.

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Also, boxer's use a wide open stance that is a perfect invitation for getting kicked in the junk.

[anglefish]

Grappling techniques are usually the most decisive ones. They have to be learnt and perfected and this takes years not 6 months. Only the UFC fighter is at this high standard. He can fight standing or on the ground but, he is in his element on the ground, especially against this lineup.

There are no rules here. He will probably start the fight on his back, especially against the boxer. Thus, completely nullifying the boxer's tools.

[kdotsky]

David,
The world's best ultimate fighter would win, and it's not close. This question would be laughable in many forums on the internet that are more knowledgeable about the subject.

Anyone who says otherwise simply does not have the knowledge to make an informed decision. I'll try to argue a little bit, but I can't just transfer everything I know about it to the forum. I'm sure other people that are truly knowledgeable about this will back me up.

UFC champ vs:
- Asian martial arts, boxer, or street fighter: If one of the two in the fighters want the fight to go to the ground, then the fight goes to the ground. The UFC fighter could even choose to be on his back, in "the guard". This is considered a neutral position in straight Brazilian JiuJitsu, a slightly disadvantaged position in UFC (due to how it looks to viewers, the time limits and judges, and an edge in striking), and a hugely dominant position against any opponent not trained in ground fighting. Once on the ground, the UFC fighter could practically pick which submission they feel like using on their opponent and execute it.

That being said, I don't need to get into the fact that the UFC fighter, even staying on his feet, would beat the asian martial artist and the street fighter. My intuition is the boxer would probably win on their feet, though the threat of kicks and takedowns is a far from subtle change to the boxer's expertise. Anyways, the UFC fighter will just take the boxer to the ground, one way or another, with ease.

If my arguments here don't satisfy you, this has already been proven in UFC 1-4. At this time, no similar competition had ever been done. The Gracies, who popularized Brazilian Jiujitsu, actually were part of getting the tournament started so that they could show the world the style that *actually* works. The only rules in the competition were no eye gouging and no fish hooking. Many different styles showed up, including street fighters, boxers, and asian martial arts. Needless to say they disappeared from the later UFC fightcards. In addition, JiuJitsu with influences from other grappling styles have become fundamental training for *every* UFC fighter today.

-- Navy Seal
Navy Seals have training in a mix of martial arts. The mix happens to be similar to the mix a UFC fighter uses, because we've learned what works. However, he has relative light training compared to a UFC fighter. He knows enough to dominate untrained opponents. He would know how to defend himself against the UFC fighter, but ultimately the fight would be similar to a high school basketball player vs. an NBA player.

PS: If all this interests you, buy UFC I-IV. It is extremely entertaining. The UFC today is ok, but takes some knowledge of the sport to really enjoy.

PPS: Could you estimate the probability that I am right? I don't care what the probability is, I just want to give you a reason to reply so I can say Sklansky replied to my post [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[kdotsky]

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One thing that puzzles me. If the heavyweight MMA guy is so good why doesn't he just specialize in boxing for a while and challenge for the World Heavyweight Championship where he can make Tens if not Hundreds of Millions of Dollars instead of the paltry purses he fights for now?

PairTheBoard

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Because he wouldn't stand a chance in a boxing match against a world class boxer. In a real fight, however, he would destroy any boxer.

A boxer would destroy a random person.
A grappler would destroy a random person.
A grappler would destroy a boxer.
A grappler with striking skills would defeat a pure grappler (of similar grappling ability) and visa versa.

There's a reason it's *mixed* martial arts.

[flow]

good post kdotsky i agree will all u said i would just like to add the fact that navy seals and boxer while in great shape dont train the same kind of endurance required in a cage. i train mma and have seen more than one well-conditioned boxer gas quickly in grappling.

[John Kilduff]

Tough question. I'll assume that we are speculating on hypothetical contestants and not real people. Here are some thoughts in no particular order:

Some people seem to have strong opinions as to which trained fighting style would be strong favorites. I don't think it's necessarily all that clear cut.

People may be underestimating the SEALs in this thread. The training they go through is absolutely brutal and I doubt I could have done it. I read somewhere that it culminates in something like a 50-mile run with a 40-lb. backpack on or something crazy like that. I know a SEAL who was mugged on a dark street by 3 guys and two of them had knives pointed at him. He was unarmed and on leave when this happened. He took the situation as being life-or-death. He ended up killing one, leaving one lying in the street, and the third ran away. True story. Now maybe he was just lucky but knowing him I don't think so. He was just a very, very serious type of guy. SEALs are trained to kill and they receive the best training the U.S. military can offer. Which brings up another point. Being trained to kill (and especially if one has actual hand-to-hand combat experience) is a different outlook. People who have not been in life-or-death fights before might freeze up for a split second even if they are otherwise the most talented fighter in the world. Someone who has engaged in and survived life-or-death hand-to-hand combat probably won't have any freeze-ups or miscues due to the novelty of the situation. Can we specify that the best SEAL fighter in the world has also fought and killed hand-to-hand? That said, I'm not saying the SEAL would necessarily be the favorite in the question posed. But he shouldn't be at the bottom of the list.

By the way, even though Asian martial arts are lumped into one category in the question, there are some big differences in that Muay Thai as a sport in Asia is extremely brutal. Again this goes back to real fighting as opposed to semi-real fighting. Bones get broken in professional Asian Muay Thai and those elbows in the face are exactly that. Regardless of whether Muay Thai or some karate style or Tae Kwon Do is theoretically the superior Asian martial art, I'd go with the guy who has been administering (and maybe receiving) actual beatings in contests. And that would be the Muay Thai guy over in Thailand or maybe Cambodia etc. where it is perfectly legal and acceptable to smash a guy's face in with your elbow during a professional fight. Someone who fights wearing protective equipment, or who merely tries to score points as in a karate competition, is not fighting the same kind of fight and therefore would be at a comparative disadvantage in a fight to the death.

I'd answer the question by ranking the fighters in two groups since I don't have a clear preference between some of the choices. Let's also assume the fighters aren't fully restricted by style and that a boxer or Muay Thai guy can and will attack the eyes or groin too. It doesn't take that long for a range fighter such as a boxer, or a striker as in Muay Thai, to get the idea that if he gets into grappling range he should go for the eyes, groin or throat, and let's assume he goes into the fight knowing that much.

Top Group (in no particular order): UFC, SEALs, and Asian (in Asia!) Muay Thai fighters. I might place the UFC and SEALs above the Muay Thai, but man, those Muay Thai guys over there are really tough and are used to dishing out and receiving severe punishment. And that does make a difference.

Boxer, streetfighter and other Asian martial arts in the second group.