Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Review

[nickg1532]

I'll go ahead and agree with Dave. I did all my own outlines, and only looked at other ones after I was done and wanted to check/supplement my own. I feel like it helped a lot. As Dave mentioned, the outline itself wasn't as useful for me as was the process of creating it and having to think through how everyting fits together.

But I think the best advice I can give to a law student is (ironically): be skeptical of other people's advice. There are no right or wrong ways to study, and you really have to find what works for you. Sometimes this will match what someone tells you to do, but often they are just telling you how to be more like them, and you may not want to be more like them. So, I like outlining, but I know for many people (like Noah) it's a complete waste of time. That's fine. We both have about the same credentials (top 10% at a 20-25, law review) and got there different ways.

[nickg1532]

Also, to agree with Dave re: outlines--imo the idea of having a 75-100 page outline (people do this!) is ridiculous. My outlines were pretty much never more than 30 pages, and usually between 20-25.

[nickg1532]

Finally, a question for Noah:

How's the OCI process coming? Have you bid on interviews yet? (We just finished bidding today . . . I should know what firms I'll be interviewing with by the end of this week).

[DemonDeac]

noah,

do you think its fine to not buy a hornbook and just use the library's copy and photocoy what you need when you are struggling with a case? or do you really think its necessary to buy the book?

i dont see the point in buying it when im not gonna use it as constant as my case book?

thanks

[XXXNoahXXX]

[ QUOTE ]
Finally, a question for Noah:

How's the OCI process coming? Have you bid on interviews yet? (We just finished bidding today . . . I should know what firms I'll be interviewing with by the end of this week).

[/ QUOTE ]


Bidding for Off-Campus programs ended on Monday. I did San Fran and NYC. Not sure how strong my interest is in either place, but we'll see. No cover letters, just resume and the occasional transcript request.

On-Campus ends next Monday, and I haven't done it yet, though I've researched tons of firms. At my school, you can bid for basically all of them, but you must rank them. The ranking only matters for the Top 10, because they reserve some spots for random lottery selections, and based upon your rank relative to others, you have a better/worse shot of getting an interview with that firm.

It's actually a tricky thing to figure out, because obviously lots of people will rank the top firms high, but then there are firms that have less interview spots, different locations, lesser-known firms, etc.


Basically, I'm gonna just bid for every major Boston firm and then make my decisions when I see where I am offered interviews. As for the top 10, its basically the Boston Vault top 10, give or take a few subs.


I'm going to a reception at a Boston firm tomorrow, I'll post and let people know how it was/what it was like.

[Dave D]

Yeah, be skeptical of other people's advice, EXCEPT for people that were in your section last year. Honestly, they know a lot, and can tell you things about how to study for the final, how that prof is, what you need to know etc.

Hornbooks aren't super necessary. I mean this as different from suppliments like Glannon. Hornbooks are like big giant essays on topics, but honestly the exam is gonna be stuff you've never seen before and trying to get your take on it or whatever (which is part of why the tests end up being arbitrary in a lot of ways). The test isn't knowledge based, not really, or at least it's assumed you know the black letter law. Sure, read a hornbook if you have time, but it's not make or break and it's not gonna give you the answers.

[XXXNoahXXX]

[ QUOTE ]
noah,

do you think its fine to not buy a hornbook and just use the library's copy and photocoy what you need when you are struggling with a case? or do you really think its necessary to buy the book?

i dont see the point in buying it when im not gonna use it as constant as my case book?

thanks

[/ QUOTE ]


I mean, I bought them all on Half.com, and you don't need one for writing, ethics/responsibility type classes, etc. I ended up spending about $300, but then sold them back online for $150 or something, so it wasnt too huge an expense.

I think it might be best to wait a week, see how the classes are, and which ones you think you'll need it for. Sometimes your prof will tell you at the beginning of the semester which one he recommends, he will have authored one (no brainer), hear from upperclassmen about the best one for a specific professor, or realize you won't need it.

Case briefs definitely aren't necessary if you plan on reading every case, and since 1L deals with lots of famous cases, theres usually stuff online anyways if you get stuck or want a quick summary because you didn't read for class.


Oh, and just copying/using the library ones are fine (not sure about copyright legalities, lol). If you find yourself really digging one, you can always get it at a moments notice online or in the school bookstore.

[XXXNoahXXX]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, be skeptical of other people's advice, EXCEPT for people that were in your section last year. Honestly, they know a lot, and can tell you things about how to study for the final, how that prof is, what you need to know etc.


[/ QUOTE ]


Haha, first semester everyone in my Contracts class was like "OMG THERE IS A CONTRACTS BOOK WITH A SHIP ON THE COVER!!! IT IS THE HOLY GRAIL!! WE MUST GET IT!!!"

People were going to Harvard's bookstore, calling places, and it seemed like 90% of people had it. Not me.

1) 10% of people get As. If 90% of the class is getting their information from the same source, is that likely to lead to an A?

2)Professors like originality. I bet professors could make some good guesses about who in the class used the same hornbook if you got eight people all using the same phrasing and real world analogies.

In the end, everyone that got that book regretted it, and it ended up being a joke second semester. Whenever someone would talk about a great resource, people would be like "oh yeah, like the ship book"



You'll find your best resources are either obvious (Chemerinsky Con Law) or not well known (I pulled some outline off like the USC Jewish Law Student's website that had all sorts of flow charts and easy to follow examples). Whenever other people give you a "hot tip" take it with a few grains of salt.


That being, said, I agree with the tip to talk to people who have had the class. Simple advice like "name laws, not cases" can make a world of difference.

[XXXNoahXXX]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, to agree with Dave re: outlines--imo the idea of having a 75-100 page outline (people do this!) is ridiculous. My outlines were pretty much never more than 30 pages, and usually between 20-25.

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm going to disagree and say have both.


The outlines I personally made were like 20-30 pages of Law. Example. Policy. Done.

But I'd always bring my full classnotes and if allowed, an expanded outline from online or something. I'd spend 45 minutes reading the 90 pager and tabbing it up. This way, you can use your 20-30 page outline for the basics, but if you find yourself with extra time, or are really lost about the minute details, you got a more complete resource to check out.

A lot of times, I'd use my outline, finish my essays with a little time left, and flip through the unnecessarily big outline, pulling out little phrases and cases references that were obviously not necessary to a complete answer, but still added some authority and impressiveness to your paper.

If you have to choose 25pg outline or 90pg outline, choose the 25pg one. But why choose?

[nickg1532]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, be skeptical of other people's advice, EXCEPT for people that were in your section last year. Honestly, they know a lot, and can tell you things about how to study for the final, how that prof is, what you need to know etc.

Hornbooks aren't super necessary. I mean this as different from suppliments like Glannon. Hornbooks are like big giant essays on topics, but honestly the exam is gonna be stuff you've never seen before and trying to get your take on it or whatever (which is part of why the tests end up being arbitrary in a lot of ways). The test isn't knowledge based, not really, or at least it's assumed you know the black letter law. Sure, read a hornbook if you have time, but it's not make or break and it's not gonna give you the answers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree on both counts. Yes, it actually is helpful if you can talk to someone from the year before who has professor-specific tips. Then again, if you pay enough attention in class, I think you can get a good feel for what that professor wants most of the time.

As for hornbooks, I don't think I looked at one once last year.