Absolutely heated about JC Tran situation at Foxwoods

[Dynasty]

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Everybody is wound up because of three reasons:
2. The solid pro played well and lost


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Let's not forget that Tran limped UTG with J9 (it looks like suited hearts) and then called a 5xBB raise from the Big Blind. We don't know anything about the game conditions and can't determine stack sizes. But, I think most players are folding that hand both times Tran had a chance to fold pre-flop. Then again, he's up against a bluff-monkey who pushed all-in with an unimproved A7.

[0524432]

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. If a player wanted to collude, there are any number of ways to work out dumping a stack without turning up the cards. That is a pathetic excuse for allowing this [censored] to happen.



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Please, OP, explain to me in the next 5 minutes 3 ways to accomplish this. I'm just not following you.

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Normally I charge by the hour but....making numerous large bets and leaving yourself with essentially nothing, without being felted and mucking. Moving AI and purposely having your cards irreversibly mucked. Which could be explained as, I didn't want anyone to see what I had, but either way, who is going to prove for what reason anyone makes any bet...blah blah blah. The donkish nature of this particular reply is a DIRECT function of how foolish the original rule is in the first place. The whole idea of keeping the cards out of the muck, even if put there by the player's own will in order to "prevent collusion" is stretching it reaaaalllll thin.

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I really just wanted to waste a few more mins of your time. As for the second part of your statement, you cant muck your cards all-in in a tournament! When the AI is called, both hands are flipped face-up.

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Buddy, if the guy intentionally jammed his cards under the pile of muck laying in the middle of the table, there is NO way to tell which 2 are his....

[PlzHelpMe]

chan=tran w/e. Lol at tran playing J9 like that and chiang limp folded 1010.

[0524432]

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wow i was responding to your rediculous 1/2nl situation and i didn't even realize you were also the OP.

[X] IN BOTH HANDS FLOOR RULED CORRECTLY

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This is honestly the last time I'm going to say it. I understand what the current rules are. HOWEVER, the theory behind them are simply, ridiculous.

As I have stated already numerous times in this thread why that is, I'm not going to keep posting the same thought process over and over. If you feel that the very avoidable security feature which this rule provides against collusion is more valuable to the integrity of the game, than a pot being awarded to a player who has every intention of folding his hand, up to and including physically placing the cards in the muck, then just wow. gl and gg

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How can you say that retrieving somebody's hand from the muck in a tourney is more detrimental to the integrity of the game than chip dumping?

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Show me where I said that.

[Dynasty]

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hey as people noticed in the video the guy inexplicably hands jc "some" chips. jc actually starts shuffling them as they are dealing out the hand LOL. did the guy get those chips back? There seems to be no way to know, but I have the sneaking suspicion that jc prolly scooped at least those chips and didn't give them back...maybe there is some justice?



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You can see the player take back those chips at about 1:35.

[0524432]

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Everybody is wound up because of three reasons:
2. The solid pro played well and lost


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Let's not forget that Chan limped UTG with J9 (it looks like suited hearts) and then called a 5xBB raise from the Big Blind. We don't know anything about the game conditions and can't determine stack sizes. But, I think most players are folding that hand both times Chan had a chance to fold pre-flop. Then again, he's up against a bluff-monkey who pushed all-in with an unimprove A7.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Tran knows what he is doing......a la CP TLB

[budblown]

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wow i was responding to your rediculous 1/2nl situation and i didn't even realize you were also the OP.

[X] IN BOTH HANDS FLOOR RULED CORRECTLY

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This is honestly the last time I'm going to say it. I understand what the current rules are. HOWEVER, the theory behind them are simply, ridiculous.

As I have stated already numerous times in this thread why that is, I'm not going to keep posting the same thought process over and over. If you feel that the very avoidable security feature which this rule provides against collusion is more valuable to the integrity of the game, than a pot being awarded to a player who has every intention of folding his hand, up to and including physically placing the cards in the muck, then just wow. gl and gg

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How can you say that retrieving somebody's hand from the muck in a tourney is more detrimental to the integrity of the game than chip dumping?

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Show me where I said that.

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Maybe I misunderstood, but this was the part I was referencing.

If you feel that the very avoidable security feature which this rule provides against collusion is more valuable to the integrity of the game, than a pot being awarded to a player who has every intention of folding his hand, up to and including physically placing the cards in the muck, then just wow. gl and gg

[Victor]

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huh? it's a general rule to prevent collusion. it has nothing to do with this specific hand. it's a rule.

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Just so. I don't think anybody believes there was attempted collusion, but were two players colluding, this is exactly how they'd do it. [1]

The dealer probably should have called the floor first, but the outcome is the same no matter what. If the floorman gets there, it goes like this:

Floor: "Are those his cards?"
Dealer: "Yep."
Floor: "You sure?"
Dealer: "Yep."
Floor: "Then turn 'em over; they're live."

Mike Ward made exactly the right ruling, and anything else starts you down a dangerous and slippery slope. It was just one of a gajillion bad beats at the Foxwoods that day. Next case.

I agree, BTW, that you should probably handle it differently in a cash game (clear intention to muck face down should be respected), but that's completely and totally irrelevant here.

Regards, Lee

[1] Erm, modulo the fact that the guy would probably bury his cards in the muck quickly so they couldn't be retrieved.

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FYI: I was personally involved in a hand at Foxwoods, 1-2nl cash game. Where I moved all in at the river on a 4 flushed board, only to have the villain show the 35h for a straight flush wheel and say in anger "I had you til the [censored] river". He then flipped his cards FACE UP and threw them towards the muck.

Instead of the dealer killing his hand, loudmouth nit at the other end of the table yells out, "you have a straight flush". At which point villain begins to pull back his turned up cards and begin placing his barrels into the pot.

Dealer called floor. Floor called another floor. Floor x 2 decided hand was live. Monkey playing 35h who doesn't even realize when he picks up a gutshot straight flush draw on the turn and mucks when he binks river, is shipped the $$.


I posted this same story a few months ago only to be told that the ruling was correct. Cash game? lolFlipament? Explain please.

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nice job leaving out the most important part of this story. did villain call your allin bet before throwing his cards away?

[stinkypete]

i don't understand why this thread is so long. the obvious (correct) ruling was made in a very simple situation. waht's there to talk about?

[Dynasty]

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chan=tran w/e. Lol at tran playing J9 like that and chiang limp folded 1010.

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Chiang = Giang w/e. (OMG racist!?!?)


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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Tran knows what he is doing......a la CP TLB

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Chau Giang does too and he says he folded TT.