HonestHoldem Terms and Conditions

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a simple question for you Ray.

When are you going to man up and admit that what you do is wrong, that you don't care that it's wrong, and you are doing it anyway as you can make a living out of it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Matrix,

For the sake of discussion... aside from making it easier for some players to acquire bot technology, it is not entirely clear what Ray is doing "wrong", from the perspective of him as a software developer.

Let's look at an analogy...

Party is against Rakeback
Affiliates offer Party Rakeback (in violation of Party Affiliate T&C)
Players sign up for Party rakeback

Party is against Bots
Ray offers bot software
Players use bot software (in violation of Party T&C)

Ray isn't violating any T&C by producing the software... You should also be aware that there is significant development work being done to enhance poker AI by Video game developers and Research institutions, etc...

So, are "we" just against bots, but not against Party rakeback, because "we" aren't the beneficiaries?... or because "we" aren't the T&C violators? (Note: "we" being some undefined subset of poker players)

Thoughts...?

ps... not trying to defend Ray in any way, just trying to understand where "we" stand on things...

[Chris H.]

It is amazing to me how such bright minds can degrade to such stupid remarks when met with an issue which they fear, and therefore refuse to accept as reality.

Reality:

1) Bots play at every site that plays online holdem.
2) There is absolutely NO WAY for the poker sites to stop this.
3) The Poker Sites T&C are a flat out illusion, not based in reality, and contrary to what you might think, we botters do not get caught NEARLY as much as you think we do or think we should.
4) If caught, the normal botter will just open another account and continue playing.
5) Poker Sites DO NOT actively deter bots/collusion as you think they do.
6) The HonestHoldem T&C is accurate no matter what your poker site tells you in theirs.

More Reality:

Your pokersite cares a LOT less about the use of bots/collusion than you think they do/should. Bots generate rake, and bad bots generate more rake. The internet is full of bad bots, just like it is full of bad human players. And collusion (as long as no one is screaming about it) makes them no difference whatsoever. If someone screams, the site will react to stop the screaming, and go back to business as usual.

Consider this:

In 1962 it was a criminal offense punishable by jail/fines and beatings to sit in the front of a public bus if you were non-white. People thought it was "wrong" to let those people use the same facilities as white citizens.

Now, we can look back and say that it was "wrong" that any of those horrible things happened to people of color in this country. Did right and wrong change? Or it was human perception that changed, thus changing right and wrong?

I am not equating a botter's struggle to a civil right's activist.

I AM pointing out that right and wrong have everything to do with perception.

There are 10 people in the room. 7 of them say using a pokerbot is wrong and give weak arguments. 3 of them say that it is perfectly fine and give strong arguments. At the end of the day it is wrong because 7 is more than 3. Nothing more.

I saw a UFO once. No I didnt really see it and they dont exist. Do you know why? Because 7 is more than 3. Nothing more.

The average person who purchases winholdem and tries to write a bot will not succeed because of the learning curve associated with programming a successful bot.

Those of us who have invested many hours and dollars into our bots have learned that this is not JUST about making money. It is about changing perception. Do you honestly think that if it was the SOLE aim to make money that this discussion would have started in the first place? Do you think that we would be telling you that there are predatory bots after your stacks? Do you think we would be having any conversation at all?

You are being lied to and I am living proof. Yes my bot is a winner, and I have probably won money from some of you on this forum. Your pokersite could do nothing to protect you from that, although they led you to believe that they could.

THAT is the perception which needs to change. Pokerbots and Collusion are real, they are prevalant and some of the bots are professional sharks. That is reality and its not going to change no matter how you think it SHOULD be.

Do you know what the poker sites do to protect you? Every few weeks or so they change the pixels on their tables. Do you think they know that it will only take me a few minutes to fix that minor annoyance? Of course they do. But it is a cheap fix for them and they will be able to lead you to believe that they are "on the job" protecting you.

Every few months or so, one of my accounts at some pokersite will be "investigated". The "investigation" is an email sent to me about using AI, and if I am caught, my account will be seized. Fair enough. What happens if my account gets siezed? I take a small loss, open another account, and continue playing until the next "investigation".

NO MATTER WHAT YOU THINK, OR HOW YOU FEEL, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO PROTECT YOU EVEN THOUGH THEY IMPLY THAT THEY CAN. Think about that the next time you sick the poker police on someone who you "think" might be running a bot/colluding.

It has led to "non botters" having their accounts siezed for "appearing" to play like a bot. Yes, this has happened more than you know. Do you think the "Honest" Joe is gonna just go and open another account in another name with another email and another financial source? No, he is honest Joe, it wouldn't even occur to him to do that. He will just stop playing.

Fear has turned some sites into witch hunters, while others just ramp up thier T&C's to appear that they are taking stronger measures. There is only one problem. IT WILL BE ONLY THE "HONEST" PLAYERS WHO SUFFER. Outlaw guns, and only the outlaws will have guns.

So armed with that knowledge, do you change your perception? Or do you continue to believe that those people should not be allowed to sit at the front of the bus?

Do you continue to live in a dreamworld where bot users are burned at the stake (along with those who "might" have used a bot)? Or do you tell yourself the truth, accept reality, and adjust your perception accordingly?

Your choice.

X

P.P.S.S.

When there is proof that no one can use a bot against me, I will no longer use my bot. The only difference between me and you, is that I have accepted the reality that I am being there are bots and collusion in online poker, and have taken steps to protect myself and level the field. You have not, except to complain about it.

I am not a criminal. My bot plays how I tell him to. He has no supernatural powers other than he does math faster than me, does not get annoyed as much as I do, and does not get tired like I do. Those are my advantages,nothing more. When you play my bot, you are playing me. I don't use collusion because I don't feel that I need that much of an advantage in order to win. If that burns your panties, I am NOT sorry, and you need stronger panties. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Chris H.]

The previous post was to the thread as a whole, not to Matrix's post.

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

given that nevada is the largest most successful
land based gaming jurisdiction in the world, i dont
forsee a day when there would ever be a reason to
forsake their current standards.

[/ QUOTE ]

All things must change - or die
it is teh nature of existance.

So you are saying you expect the ngc
to die.

(if they will not change they will
die.

It's simply a question of when)

Do you imagine that the ngcs successor
will certify internet "insecure" games?

If a site were to get certified for
provision of internet based holdem, by
the ngc would you follow that sites T&C's?

Or only if those T&C's were conducive to
your cheating business?

[ QUOTE ]

nobody is "bright enough" to solve an unsolvable
problem - that's why it's called "unsolvable"


[/ QUOTE ]

Some time ago...

nobody was bright enough to figure
out how to fly.

nobody was bright enough to send
people into space.

nobody was bright enough to transmit
pictures over thin air.

nobody was bright enough to work out
the longitude.

nobody was bright enough to build a
printing press.

nobody was bright enough to deduce
the earth wasn't flat.

There is NOTHING that cannot be done.

It's simply a question of when.

Here is a simple question for you Ray.

When are you going to man up and admit that what you do is wrong, that you don't care that it's wrong, and you are doing it anyway as you can make a living out of it?

[/ QUOTE ]

the nevada gaming commission is not going away. neither is
the gaming control board which is a branch underneath the ngc.

they will most likely create the internet game control
board (igcb) at some point which will be mandated to
regulate game servers operated within the state of nevada
most likely all within an official building(s) wherein
the igcb can police things accordingly.

there is absolutely no reason to believe that any such igcb
would have less stringent gaming standards than the gcb.
the same policies would endure - i.e. all games must be
policeable with no "good faith" security requirements.
the state of nevada will never certify an internet game
server if it's not possible to prove that the operator
cannot collude with a player without being detected.

any internet site that lies in their t&c loses all moral
authority and as such they should not be surprised when
their customers lie to them.

if an internet site lies to me, i will return the favor.
(i've been quite honest and faithful to this promise since 2003)

ray.

[5thStreetHog]

You and your bf Ray can cheat all you want.Ill continue to honor my word because unlike you,my word means something to me.Im sure you both have a cheaters forum at which you are welcomed with open arms.Go away and post there,your bs is not flying here. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
You and your bf Ray can cheat all you want.Ill continue to honor my word because unlike you,my word means something to me.Im sure you both have a cheaters forum at which you are welcomed with open arms.Go away and post there,your bs is not flying here. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

dont promise me that you're obeying your site t&c.
your promise means little in a real money game between
strangers over the internet.

prove to me that you're telling the truth.
i bear no burden to trust you simply because you ask me to.

you are tracking, botting, teaming.
you bear the burden to prove that you are not or cannot.

common sense game theory holds that each self-interested
player will avail themselves of the best edge increasing decisions available.

you seem like you're self-interested to me.
nothing wrong with that. but dont lie to me.

you could be nothing more than a shrewd ostrich farmer
telling the herd what you want them to hear. and that
means you're a liar. i don't cooperate with liars.

if you want my cooperation with the t&c
then first prove to me that you are cooperating with the t&c
then we can talk.

i have no reason to trust you and it's kind of an insult
for you to even ask me to trust you when real money is involved.

when real money is involved then i'm gonna need more than
your "good faith" promise dude.

in online holdem,
everyone is guilty of +ev decisions
until somebody can prove that those
decisions are not possible.

ray

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]

Ray isn't violating any T&C by producing the software... You should also be aware that there is significant development work being done to enhance poker AI by Video game developers and Research institutions, etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. By producing bot s/w Ray is not breaking any laws or T&C's of poker sites.

What I believe he does that is wrong is actively encourage people to break T&C's of poker sites - and actively encourage people to cheat (via collusion)

That is the part I have a problem with.

There are many ways a poker bot creator I think could make a living from his work - I am aware that people write poker bots and work on poker AI etc - why shouldn't they [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I don't think bots are a bad thing per se - it's how they get used.

If wh had no teaming abilities and collusion wasn't a part of it I probably wouldn't feel as strongly as I do.

FWIW I never did get Party rakeback. Tho I probably would have if I could - and I think your analogy isn't a great one because Party RB while it does violate Party's T&C it doesn't harm the players who play at Party, it doesn't even harm the site itself as it has already agreed to pay affiliates $x for sending it players.

Bots and cheating/collusion does directly harm the playerbase.

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Ray isn't violating any T&C by producing the software... You should also be aware that there is significant development work being done to enhance poker AI by Video game developers and Research institutions, etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. By producing bot s/w Ray is not breaking any laws or T&C's of poker sites.

What I believe he does that is wrong is actively encourage people to break T&C's of poker sites - and actively encourage people to cheat (via collusion)

That is the part I have a problem with.

There are many ways a poker bot creator I think could make a living from his work - I am aware that people write poker bots and work on poker AI etc - why shouldn't they [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I don't think bots are a bad thing per se - it's how they get used.

If wh had no teaming abilities and collusion wasn't a part of it I probably wouldn't feel as strongly as I do.

FWIW I never did get Party rakeback. Tho I probably would have if I could - and I think your analogy isn't a great one because Party RB while it does violate Party's T&C it doesn't harm the players who play at Party, it doesn't even harm the site itself as it has already agreed to pay affiliates $x for sending it players.

Bots and cheating/collusion does directly harm the playerbase.

[/ QUOTE ]

matrix,

instead of you lying to me to get me to be a "good faith"
player while your actual intentions are to be "bad faith"
due to potential edge from tracking, botting, teaming,

how 'bout we both honestly admit that we're both
"bad faith" players and intend to track and bot
and team each other at will.

you dont have to promise me anything.
i dont have to promise you anything.

if we both agree to this then we instantly
become "good faith" opponents on a level field.

ray

[5thStreetHog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You and your bf Ray can cheat all you want.Ill continue to honor my word because unlike you,my word means something to me.Im sure you both have a cheaters forum at which you are welcomed with open arms.Go away and post there,your bs is not flying here. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

dont promise me that you're obeying your site t&c.
your promise means little in a real money game between
strangers over the internet.

prove to me that you're telling the truth.
i bear no burden to trust you simply because you ask me to.

you are tracking, botting, teaming.
you bear the burden to prove that you are not or cannot.

common sense game theory holds that each self-interested
player will avail themselves of the best edge increasing decisions available.

you seem like you're self-interested to me.
nothing wrong with that. but dont lie to me.

you could be nothing more than a shrewd ostrich farmer
telling the herd what you want them to hear. and that
means you're a liar. i don't cooperate with liars.

if you want my cooperation with the t&c
then first prove to me that you are cooperating with the t&c
then we can talk.

i have no reason to trust you and it's kind of an insult
for you to even ask me to trust you when real money is involved.

when real money is involved then i'm gonna need more than
your "good faith" promise dude.

in online holdem,
everyone is guilty of +ev decisions
until somebody can prove that those
decisions are not possible.

ray



[/ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]Little news flash for ya Ray,its irrelevant to me whether you believe that my word is bond.I do not compete honestly to prove my worth to someone else.I do this and try to be a man of my word for myself.Btw,maybe you could quit hiding behind this silly concept in all your responces and speak for yourself as a man,but i suppose it is easier for you to spit lies and rationalize your behavior this way,fair enough.But to leave you on a more positive note,look on the bright side Ray,you at least had one other cheater come to your defence in a week.And the idea he proposed that people that are against cheaters are in a way similar to people who fought against the civil rights movement,is brilliant.It is obvious that this guy is a true friend to your struggle,and his integrity is no doubt on par with yours.

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]

matrix,

instead of you lying to me to get me to be a "good faith"
player while your actual intentions are to be "bad faith"
due to potential edge from tracking, botting, teaming,


[/ QUOTE ]

Lying to you??

thats a good one. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Ray forget about the bot business your calling is at the Comedy Store.

If you could point out where I have lied to you that would be interesting.

I'll get an edge over the opposition any way I can as long as it's within the T&C's of the sites I play at.

So yes I track my opponents - and I participate in strategy forums here - and I frequently look through hands my better opponents have played against me and try to incorporate someof those plays into my game.

Yes the server frequently gives me access to information that I wouldn't normally get (mucked hands at showdown) and I use this information to the best of my abilities.

To be honest tho the information the HUD gives me I find most useful for table selection, most stats need a large sample to converge to anything meaningful and I can judge more accurately how loose/tight a certain player is playing a particular session after sitting for 3-4 orbits now in any case.

However thats as far as it goes - I don't run a bot and have no interest in running one, and I certainly don't cheat by colluding with people and sharing my hole card info as easy as it would be to do this via AIM or Skype or something similar.

I want to beat the game because of my own skill - I play mostly for fun and beer money, if I can advance my skill to the point where I can make $50/hr+ consistantly so that I could pursue poker as a means of support for a while instead of "working" so much the better.

Cheating at low stakes levels would be like following a walkthrough to win at Final Fantasy - pointless.

[ QUOTE ]

you dont have to promise me anything.
i dont have to promise you anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

You got that bit right.

[ QUOTE ]

if we both agree to this then we instantly
become "good faith" opponents on a level field.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we bot agree to that then I am agreeing that collusion is OK.

I am never going to agree that collusion is OK. I am aware it happens - I am aware that it's easy to do - I am aware that it takes a degree of skill to actually use the extra information you get to develop an edge for HE (Omaha is a little easier in this regard)

But I don't have to like it - and I certainly don't have to support it.

I am not a "bad faith player" - if the poker sites banned tracking opponents tomorrow - I would stop tracking my opponents.