Well known tournament players who really post about poker

[pfkaok]

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Consider Gigabet's posts. They're often quite valuable to top-notch players, but many players who are merely good (I place myself in this category) misunderstand them in subtle ways and end up misusing the ideas, resulting in losses. Personally, I rarely understand what he's getting at until someone else (often Adanthar ) rehashes them.


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i think with gigs post a lot of the problem is willingness to rethink ones beliefs, and learn with an open mind. too many people on here just look for way to attack posts. gigs post probably helped me more than any other post on here ever has. sure i had to read it a few times, and it wasn't until i had been playing lots of MTTs, then reread it. actually, even though not much intelligent debate came out of the redzone debate, i felt like i leanred a ton from that, as it helped me to really clarify my thoughts, even though nobody else seemed to get much from what i was trying to say.

[ESKiMO-SiCKNE5S]

how did this make post of the day..... [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[AtticusFinch]

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i think with gigs post a lot of the problem is willingness to rethink ones beliefs, and learn with an open mind.


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I agree that that problem is endemic here, but I hardly think it's isolated to Giga's posts. In fact, I think people are far more willing to consider alternative ideas when they come out of his mouth than someone else's.

The trouble I was mentioning was not so much that people did not accept them, but that they thought they were using his ideas, but in fact were abusing them.

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too many people on here just look for way to attack posts.


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Isn't that the sad truth.

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gigs post probably helped me more than any other post on here ever has. sure i had to read it a few times, and it wasn't until i had been playing lots of MTTs, then reread it.

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Which goes to show that while Giga has many fine talents, making his complex ideas easily accessible is not one of them, as he is typically thinking several levels above most of the rest of us.

At least he is willing to share from time to time, however. And we have others here to decipher him [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[RockMySocks]

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i know that teaching skill is closely related to communication skill. however, i don't believe that there is an inverse relationship between expertise and communication skill.

and if 2 people had the same level of communication skills it seems pretty clear that the one with more expertise in that field would teach better.

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i don't think anyone would disagree with either of these points, but I have to ask: did you actually see ivey on the show?

conversely, i can actually feel my wallet growing fatter everytime lederer opens his mouth...

[pfkaok]

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The trouble I was mentioning was not so much that people did not accept them, but that they thought they were using his ideas, but in fact were abusing them.

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well. i think this goes hand in hand with people unwillingness to put in the time/effort required to fully understand the more advanced theories. they look for simpler answers, and a more cookie-cutter easy to use approach that can be applied to every situation. its the same with harrington. it is a great book, certainly the best NLHE MTT one out there. but unfortunately, many 2p2ers like to really grasp a few of his concepts and then try to apply them to situations where they shouldn't be applied. for some reason they take everythying in there as gospel, except for the part where he talks about how complex of a game NLHE is, and how his book can't possible encompass all the finer points. he said that you should be very happy that its nearly an impossible game to master b/c you will always be able to improve, and no matter how good you get you can always get better if you put in the effort. funny how so many people must have skipped that section.

i really do believe alot of the nastiness on here is caused by peoples unwillingness to put a lot of time/effort into understanding. lets face it, most of us on here are lazy. most of us on here are quite a bit above average intellect. thats a bad combination. smart people often get used to learning concepts quickly, and if they're also lazy they often will find alternatives to putting in the effort if its not easy. sometimes a poster will post a very complex, difficult to grasp concept, call this concept X. then what happens is people read it, and use technicalities in his wording, to convince themselves and others that they're in fact saying concept Y. now he goes on to prove just how stupid concept Y is, and once a NAME poster agrees that concept Y is stupid then its all over. nothing good can come of that thread.

[pfkaok]

no. sorry. i didn't actually see ivey, i was just responding to the general idea he was saying about experts not being good teachers. however, i would be very suprised if ivey really was trying to teach everyone the best he could. on wsop they talked about how he taught his wife to play and she was in the ladies event. also, just the fact that so many of the really big name guys' wives have been competing in the ladies event the past few years. and the fact that some of them are aparrently very good says something. and of course jen tilly probably learned a whole lot from her boyfriend. this is why top name players who offer coaching are able to charge very high rates, and why its still worth it for aspiring pros to pay so much.

[DesertCat]

I don't have time to find Paul's old MTT posts. But here is one he posted this year on the WPT forum. Even though it's a trival post on a trivial topic, it's an example of why his posts were usually so interesting. He provides insight from a different perspective, he rarely repeats other's viewpoints, and almost always adds something to the discussion. In this case it's personal experience with high limit players, and an interesting observation about them.


Why do the pros always peek at their cards? [Re: parappa]
#2965574 - 07/25/05 08:32 PM

I have always wondered this myself and never figured it out. However, your question does open the door to one of my favorite poker stories.

I am playing three-handed with ivey and another guy (the other table is four-handed) while we wait for someone to bust so we can come back tomorrow for the live TV table at turning stone. Ivey raises every hand. We fold every hand. Every hand he looks back at his cards before mucking and taking the pot.

Finally after hours of this I say "phil, why the [censored] do you always look back at your cards after we fold like the pussies we are? Are you just admiring the absurd [censored] cards you're using to rob us, or what?"

Phil says (with no delay) "You know what I'm doing? I'm seeing what the other one was."

Now another poker story, the memory of which I don't hold as fondly. It's very late in the 2004 $3K WSOP event and john juanda is (as always) doing the same thing. He re-raises all-in from the big blind and the early position raiser folds pocket tens face-up after a long sweat. Juanda looks back at his cards, looks at me (to his immediate right) and smiles, then goes to fold. He smiled at me because I'd just made a similar comment to the one I made to ivey at turning stone.

All of a sudden another player who wasn't even involved in the hand starts railing angrily that juanda showed me his hand and he demands to see it too. The floor is brought over and it turns into a huge scene. John and I are both absolutely livid because we both know he didn't show me his hand and that he never would, but to my lasting distress, the floor ends up ruling that john has to show his hand, which turns out to be pocket sixes. I come within nanometers of flipping out enough to penalize myself out of the tournament with two tables left, but I am somehow de-steamed enough to avoid it. (Amusingly I end up going to the final table as chip leader thanks to the vicissitudes of poker.)

As a sidenote, the only two people I can think of immediately who always look back at their cards after everyone folds are juanda and ivey. The two people I think are a noticeable cut above EVERYONE else in tournament poker are juanda and ivey. Coincidence? Unknown.

[Cactus Jack]

DesertCat, very cool post. Funny stuff, too.

If I may toss my two cents in here.

I'm a mod on another site. Thank God I don't have to deal with what Lloyd does! I would weild a much bigger stick.

It is painful what goes on here. About once a month, I come over and spend a couple days reading. Because I have no control over my fingers, I end up posting. Much to my regret. I always, ALWAYS wish I could keep them off the keyboard.

I'd give half my bankroll--the one in Pokerstars, which I think still has seven buck in it--to have some of the guys you have on this site posting on mine. I'd beg them, if it would do any good. I'd make them a nice, quiet place to discuss anything they'd like amongst themselves, and delete any posts which did not further the conversation. Seriously, I would do some big-time censoring. The fact that some are allowed such latitude here is more of a testament to patience, rather than wisdom. Not smacking the children leads to chaos, in which this forum often descends.

When it does, as it always does, I leave again and don't come back for another month.

It's okay to disagree, but why be so disagreable?

I was excited about the posters I wanted to read getting their names in color. Did no good. The brats still manage to disrupt the class. Is there anything the mods can do about it? Yeah, but the brats wouldn't like it and they'd make life even worse.

2+2 should be the ONLY site on the web for a serious student of the game to be at. Too bad more people don't take it seriously.

Soapbox put back in the closet. Armour being put on. Cleanup on aisle nine, forthcoming.

Ish.

CJ