The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

[John Kilduff]

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What percentage of this issue is just racism, do you think? (I heard the words "assimilate" and "be a part our culture" a lot from the candidates, which sounds a heck of a lot like code to me.) What percentage is purely an economic issue? How much is fear of crime or terrorism?


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Why is talking about assimilation code word for racism? If you truly were a racist and wanted to keep brown people down, the best way would be to keep them from learning English and hope they stay in barrios. Not speaking English greatly limits opportunities in the US.

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I thought conservatives generally believed in "free to choose"? There is value in preserving one's culture, for its own damn sake. There is a trade-off one chooses between personal values and outward success!

But anyway, it strikes me that behind any popular idea on whatever spectrum there is some bit of evidence that a rational person could interpret and come away with that view. I used to be more idealistic and advocate completely open borders. But look at the empirical evidence in France and the European countries and the situation they face with increasing Islamization - it's clear to me now that allowing too many immigrants at once could be very well counterproductive to libertarian beliefs. Here all we do is bitch, grumble and groan when we try to roll back the welfare state, and in France they cripple the economy and violently riot. So there are good, practical reasons to support assimilation, especially in America where I really admire our individualistic mindset. We shouldn't be so blithely sure that immigrants immediately adopt that, because I think its so vital to our many successes.

But then again, most popular ideas didn't become popular on their merits. They become popular because they appeal to deeply held biases, correct or not, to maintain political identity. I doubt many people at all could even come up witha basic philosophical basis for why they support the issues they do, and argue issues like immigration from a pro-Western and chauvinist, perspective.

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The philosophical basis is pro-Western and chauvinistic, why should arguments be framed in that perspective?

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What percent of notable accomplishments have been made by non-Western females?

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Uggh, these "what % of questions" are tiresome... But here's one if you like this game:

What percent of notable atrocities have been made by non-Western females?

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(or by any females). Bingo. Proof positive that that there ARE group differences, and that the "everyone is the same" credo is pure BS.

[TomCollins]

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McCain is a national hero?

Oh wait, I forgot that for some reason people consider bad things happening to you to be heroic. Nevermind, carry on.

*goes and heroicly jumps into the Grand Canyon*

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Yeah, McCain as a National hero is a joke. The guy has always been a complete baffoon.

From what I understood, there are a few reasons why Republicans are very anti-immigration.

1) The cost. A welfare state and open immigration cannot coexist. When you get free health care, free schooling of your kids, and other handouts, this gets extremely expensive. Immigrants (at least the illegal ones) rarely make enough money to cover these benefits.

2) Security. If anyone can come into your country, maybe the turrirsts can come in too!

3) Direction of the country. This one particularly worries Republicans. Countries where immigrants come from typically have the attitude that government's role is to provide for its people. When 10 million people come across the border, the next step is to become a citizen. When they become citizens, they can vote. When they can vote, you will have 10 million new Democrats to vote them out.

At least these are their concerns, not necessarily all of them are valid.

[JMa]

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What percentage of this issue is just racism, do you think? (I heard the words "assimilate" and "be a part our culture" a lot from the candidates, which sounds a heck of a lot like code to me.)

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I think 90% of the issue is culture, not racism. Have you been to a fast food restaurant or retail store lately? No one working in those places speaks English anymore. As long as the majority of the workforce that people interact with on a daily basis have 0 language skills, people will be pissed of about illegal immigration, regardless of whether those people are illegal immigrants. That and its nice to be able to go to Home Depot without being swarmed by illegal immigrants asking you if you need help.

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this doesnt really make sense imo. if enough ppl felt like this, there would be tons of restaurants and retail stores run by regular americans. also, if u dont like the staff at a place you do actually have a choice to not buy anything from them..

[DVaut1]

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I used to be more idealistic and advocate completely open borders. But look at the empirical evidence in France and the European countries and the situation they face with increasing Islamization - it's clear to me now that allowing too many immigrants at once could be very well counterproductive to libertarian beliefs. Here all we do is bitch, grumble and groan when we try to roll back the welfare state, and in France they cripple the economy and violently riot.

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Wait; is the French transit worker strike some kind of immigrant-led movement? Are the riots in France's ethnic suburbs due to the rolling back of the welfare state?

I mean, this looks like a crude and subtle attempt to say "look, bad things are happening in France, and the immigrants are at fault!"...and yet you make absolutely no attempt to actually draw a causative link between these bad things and immigration -- I mean, are we to believe France's unsustainable pension system for transit workers, Sarkozzy's attempt to roll the benefits back, and the resultant strikes which have crippled the country are somehow the fault of immigrants?

I don't think your arguing that; so what's your point in the context of the immigration debate? The French shouldn't let immigrants assimilate into their culture, because 'native' French are lazy and whiny, or Americans should try to assimilate recent immigrants into theirs, because we're chest-thumping cowboy individualists?

And what does any of this have to do with public policy, anyway? "Don't let immigrants in, because they might not assimilate"? Surprising that libertarians are going to allow the government to determine which people are fit for assimilation and which aren't. I guess state power is terrible and threatening and worthy of our ever-watchful suspicion, in all cases... except when judging the attitudes of brown people and their fitness for assimilation in our wonderful culture? If you *don't* actually think the American government should be making these kinds of determinations -- then what exactly are we debating here? I like getting on my high-horse soapbox to laud our wonderfully hard-working, industrial, individualist culture in America too; it gives me a huge hard-on. But are we really comfortable with anointing the state the power to protect that culture?

I realize you're probably not arguing for that. But I'll be candid and admit I'm not sure what you are advocating here. You "used to be for open borders", until you saw all the problems France and Europe are having, and they have immigrants too; so now you...support immigration controls?

I suppose I support 'assimilation' too. It would probably make immigrants lives easier and more prosperous if they learned English and watched baseball and ate cheeseburgers. I can get on board with that. But, assuming they're not inclined to do such things, who exactly should be enforcing those norms?

[Copernicus]

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What percentage of this issue is just racism, do you think? (I heard the words "assimilate" and "be a part our culture" a lot from the candidates, which sounds a heck of a lot like code to me.)

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I think 90% of the issue is culture, not racism. Have you been to a fast food restaurant or retail store lately? No one working in those places speaks English anymore. As long as the majority of the workforce that people interact with on a daily basis have 0 language skills, people will be pissed of about illegal immigration, regardless of whether those people are illegal immigrants. That and its nice to be able to go to Home Depot without being swarmed by illegal immigrants asking you if you need help.

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In return, stuff is cheaper.

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Compared to less illegal immigration, a broken legal immigration system and a broken welfare system, yes.

Compared to less illegal immmigration, an effective legal immigration/guest worker program and a welfare system that puts people to work instead of feeding them life support, no.

[Moseley]

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Can someone explain to me why the Republicans seem to be so rabid about the immigration issue? It seems to be the #1 issue on republican voters' list (even above Iraq, terrorism, the economy). So much so, that the crowd was booing a national hero (McCain, one of the few who actually tried to attack the problem with something other than rhetoric), because he suggested that deporting every illegal immigrant might not be a workable solution.

What percentage of this issue is just racism, do you think?

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I think only a small part of it has to do with racism; that small part of the public who are racists.

I saw last night on fox, where one state recently passed a law against illegal immigrants, that was so strong, the illegals packed up and left and it brought much of the construction industry to a halt. They interviewed new would be homeowners, who will not be in their new home by xmas as they had hoped.

Those are not jobs that citizens will not take.

About a yr ago, I saw on Lou Dobbs, where in the mid 90s the avg butcher in a meat processing plant made $16.50 pr hr. Now they make $9.50 an hr.

Who do you think was doing the job in the mid 90s and who is doing it now?

Dobbs cited a report, that if we were paying the butchers from the mid 90s (Americans) and adjusted their hourly wage for inflation, it would cost us approx 10-15 cents more per pound.

There are a couple of the reasons why citizens are so rabid about illegal immigrants. There are many more.

Now I DO NOT hold the same view as many: Deport all 12 million of them asap!

I believe, as McCain does, that they are human beings just like us. I believe the only reason they came here is because they saw a way to obtain a better life.

The only reason they saw that: American businesses were willing to break the law to increase their profit margin at the expense of American citizens.

The hatred for this mess should be directed towards:
1. The federal gov't & 2. The employers.

If I was living south of the border, had a family I couldn't give a decent life to because of the crooked govt and saw a way out up north, I would have packed my bags also.

So, I believe we need to build a double fence all the way across the southern border asap. Then, once we have frozen the illegal immigration, we can discuss melting the 12 million immigrants into society. You can't pack them up and send them home, when it was our govt and our crooked employers who made it so tempting for them to come.

Finally, we have all (except those who lost their jobs because of illegal immigration) benefited from lower prices from their cheap labor.

So, when I see a construction co. full of what could possibly be illegals doing the labor, my hatred is directed towards the contractor, not the brown colored laborer who has risked so much to make it here and get employed by the criminal who calls himself an American.

My feelings toward the immigrant: God Bless you and your success.

FINALLY: My next door neighbor is a bookkeeper for a mexican restaurant chain, that hires numerous illegals. They have fake ss numbers and she gets letters from the SSA all the time about them not matching.

Three years ago, the owner did 10 months in prison for paying people under the table. When he got out, he found out that what the govt wants is the taxes, not proof he is hiring legal citizens.

Now all the illegals pay taxes, including SS taxes and he has not heard from the fed despite the fact that the SSA sends him mismatched SS number letters every month.

[ikestoys]

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McCain is a national hero?

Oh wait, I forgot that for some reason people consider bad things happening to you to be heroic. Nevermind, carry on.

*goes and heroicly jumps into the Grand Canyon*

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forget your coffee before posting this morning?

[gobbomom]

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McCain is a national hero?

Oh wait, I forgot that for some reason people consider bad things happening to you to be heroic. Nevermind, carry on.

*goes and heroicly jumps into the Grand Canyon*

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forget your coffee before posting this morning?

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I thought it was hilarious.

[DVaut1]

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I believe, as McCain does, that they are human beings just like us.

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You know the debate about immigration is in a good, healthy place when we must reaffirm that these entities which have come across the border without the proper documentation are indeed human beings after all.

[Taso]

Just to confirm: illegal (excuse me dennis kucinich, undocumented) immigrants pay taxes? Is that a fact, jack?