AllIn preflop post

[sethypooh21]

Yeah, i definitely need ATo/A8s here to 3 bomb.

[Oink]

1 thing to note IMO

Yeah you are not folding a lot of better hands postflop when you 3-ball. But compared to just calling you might fold worse hands that would make you fold had you not 3-bet PF.

Say you just call and flop comes KT3fd with no bdfd for you. I would be folding here and giving up about 35-40% eq.

Now an argument can of course be made for me to not fold but I dunno about that.

In any case. 3-betting might not buy us a lot of implied FE but it will reduce our reverse implied FE as hero will now be the one to take down the pot on flops where he would have c/f'ed.

[vmacosta]

[ QUOTE ]


Say you just call and flop comes KT3fd with no bdfd for you. I would be folding here and giving up about 35-40% eq.

Now an argument can of course be made for me to not fold but I dunno about that.


[/ QUOTE ]

so here's my main problem. Frankly, on that KTxr flop, I think folding A7o is bad. AllIn agrees, I think, but many good players fold there (see that thread for examples). I think giving up 35+% equity getting 5:1 is dumb. But I guess I'm just as uncomfortable in that spot as other ppl, which is why I tend to 3-bet stuff like A8o pf. I know it sounds silly to make a -ev play in order to avoid a different -ev play. But I just don't get why ppl are so quick to dump all that equity getting 5:1.

sorry for the ramble, plz keep up with good responses--I am def in need of improvement here.

[Oink]

[ QUOTE ]
sorry for the ramble, plz keep up with good responses--I am def in need of improvement here.

[/ QUOTE ]

So am I

The thing is with calling that flop is that people 2nd barrel me here. So I am calling to either improve on turn and c/f UI or to call turn UI and make a decision on river.

In either case I am getting owned. But I can certainly see how folding with 35% eq is terrible

[yourface]

vs people who play well I think c/f is best.

yes we pass up some equity, but vs guys who will be bluffing, semibluffing, value checking, and taking free cards with the right frequencies we are going to be playing a guessing game postflop. this means lots of FTOP mistakes, and therefore very high RIO

of course vs players who play predictably life gets a lot easier

[Oink]

If we c/f those flops then we need to consider that when debating preflop.

If Allin is c/f'ing those flops his analysis is incomplete IMHO. We should not only care about which cards we get villain to fold but on which boards its now villain that folds as opposed to Hero

[Tryptamean]

Playing Ax unimproved postflop has been bugging me for the same reasons. I used to 3bet Ax out of the BB back in my tagfish 3+ AF days, when I was more accustomed to having initiative and more comfortable. I've started calling with it for basically the same reasons Allin talks about in his post (altho I couldnt have explained it so well).

I think this all comes down to Ax UI being a tough hand to play after the flop regardless of whether you have initiative.

About giving up your 35% equity on a KTx 2flush flop, I don't think it "bad" to give it up. You are in a RIO situation = you need more equity to peel, therefore you fold. The whole point of not 3betting pf is that you have the luxury of giving up that equity because the pot is small. I'd much rather do that instead of face a flop raise in a bigger pot, or face a tough turn decision when villian calls my flop c-bet.

[thrasher789]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, i definitely need ATo/A8s here to 3 bomb.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed, that's a pretty good cutoff to 3 bet stealers imo

[FlopYouDead]

If I call a raise pf and c/f the flop I feel like an idiot. I called just to flop an ace or some horrid undercard flop?

If I call pf and c/c flop I feel like an idiot whether I then c/f turn or river or call down and show ace rag. If he shows a K I feel dumb and if he shows 44 I feel dumb.

It just doesn't seem like I'm giving my hand a chance. I win a minimal pot when I'm good or lose a substantial pot if I look him up. I'm also outdrawn a lot giving free cards to worse hands.

If I call pf it's not pot odds it's because I think my hand is good. If it isn't the 3 outer is not worth it. So I raise pf. In general I don't believe the cheap streets are the place to be saving bets.

[Romulet]

Having read the posts from the Med/Highstakes players the main point which hits home is the difficulty of playing this type of hand OOP.

From the concepts explored it would seem that the better player the button the bigger the mistake of 3 betting.
Looking at My PT stats all the Axo hands suck <A8 so we don't want to be investing any extra OOP.

It would seem that 3 betting is therefore an error.