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#3
11-27-2007, 08:47 PM
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Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
is shove really best? i think i want to keep all the smaller draws in.
you could even make an argument for min raising here hoping to get a few dead calls and someone to push all in. theres 63 dead in the pot. you have 96 behind. you push that makes 162 pot and 96 to call. not even laying someone 2:1, or rather if called by 2pr/set, you need to be good 33% to break even. i think theres more EV in just calling. Your not going to take this pot down non contested all too often, and when called. If you think someone will call 96 with KQ,JK,TJ,9J then now pushing would have a bit more EV (maybe?) iam really guessing i haven't done any math. 
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#4
11-27-2007, 08:59 PM
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Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
The point is we have a good amount of FE coupled with lots of dead money in the pot and a very strong draw with many outs to the nuts.
We'd love to take down this pot without having to hit our draw, and if we're going to commit our stack to it (which we should), it's best to do it when we have fold equity and an opportunity to see both remaining cards if called.
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#5
11-27-2007, 09:00 PM
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Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
I actually kinda, really like call
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#8
11-27-2007, 09:20 PM
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Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
I have no doubt that shoving is definately +EV, but calling with such a monster might actually be better.
Obviously if you hit a K on the turn you will be free-rolling against maybe 2-3 here, or a flush could come up against a smaller flush. I dunno just babbling, have no idea which is better actually. I would probably shove, just because I know doing so is very profitable...just not sure if it is the most profitable.
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#9
11-27-2007, 10:10 PM
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Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
[ QUOTE ]
I actually kinda, really like call [/ QUOTE ] If I can try to explain what carrotsnake is thinking, we have 2 very good nut draws. In a pot this multiway, a whole lot of our implied odds come from doodz with non nut draws that will get it in when we hit the turn (lower spades in particular) While shoving is certainly +EV with all the dead money in the pot, you're never getting called by a worse draw and you're often flipping-ish when you get called. Just flatting the flop allows you to realize your implied odds. Also, if we just call this flop and hit a spade, king or 8 on the turn I think that I like donking more than check/raising. Anyone else?
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#10
11-27-2007, 10:16 PM
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Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I actually kinda, really like call [/ QUOTE ] If I can try to explain what carrotsnake is thinking, we have 2 very good nut draws. In a pot this multiway, a whole lot of our implied odds come from doodz with non nut draws that will get it in when we hit the turn (lower spades in particular) While shoving is certainly +EV with all the dead money in the pot, you're never getting called by a worse draw and you're often flipping-ish when you get called. Just flatting the flop allows you to realize your implied odds. Also, if we just call this flop and hit a spade, king or 8 on the turn I think that I like donking more than check/raising. Anyone else? [/ QUOTE ] If there is another spade draw then that leaves little spade outs. If the turn pairs the board we're pretty much [censored] to continue. What makes you think another fd is folding if you push anyway?
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