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#111
11-21-2007, 04:14 PM
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Re: Best US President
James K Polk is the coast to coast best.
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#113
11-24-2007, 10:58 PM
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Re: Best US President
[ QUOTE ]
If the U.S. doesn't join WWII...there is certainly a non-zero possibility that the USSR would have won the cold war (control of Japan) and, of course, a non-zero chance that we would all be speaking German right now. [/ QUOTE ] Soviets wouldn't have control of Japan, they never would have even fought. Cold War would be Japan + China + Southeast Asia and maybe India vs USSR + Occupied Europe vs US + UK and maybe France/Italy depending on if UK can D-Day by itself. Due to their huge borders and opposed ideologies Japan and Soviets would be natural enemies, so Cold War would likely be weak US + powerful Japan vs powerful Soviets
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#116
11-25-2007, 05:42 AM
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Re: Best US President
[ QUOTE ]
[This is] very results oriented. FDR basically manipulated the Japanese into attacking in order to get into the war vs Germany, which is my main problem with it ... I've always wondered what would have happened if Hitler hadn't declared war on us. [/ QUOTE ]You'd be very hard pressed to find serious support for the argument that the world would have been a better place if the United States had not entered World War II and the Axis had not been defeated. Even as things turned out in reality (Soviet Union taking over Eastern Europe, etc etc), only fringe eccentrics, loonies, and crypto-fascists would argue that having Nazism still around would be somehow better. [ QUOTE ] And the results of WW2 weren't all that great. All of Eastern Europe (edit: and China) was lost to Communism. with millions killed by the Soviets when they won. [/ QUOTE ] We would have one of two alternative conclusions to a World War II without America : Either the Axis would have won/drawn or it would still have lost. If the Axis had won (or achieved a stalemate/draw which would allow the Axis powers to remain in place, though weakened), this would have been a very bad outcome for humanity. I'll leave it to others to elaborate why the continuation of Nazi medical experiments on humans and the legitimisation of eugenics would be a bad thing. However, if the Allies had won anyway but without America, the outcome would have been much worse than what actually transpired! The Soviet Union, which in any case carried by far the biggest burden of the war effort, would have been the prime factor in that victory and would have come out of the war as an undisputed world superpower, with regions conquered or under its influence in both Europe (not just Eastern Europe) and the Asian Pacific region (if also Japan had been defeated). Most of western Europe would've been "Finnlandized", at best. (Also possible would be an outcome whereby Japan and USSR would share in the spoils of the Pacific and Eastern Asia, with Germany and Italy defeated but Imperial Japan surviving.) All these outcomes are blatantly worse for American interests than what actually happened. I.e. the U.S. did enter the war (through a forced Pearl Harbor), established itself in Europe, eliminated Britain's status as colonial superpower, created & led institutions that secured its leadership among industrialized democracies, and primed itself as the supreme economic powerhouse of the world. Recession ended with the war economy! FDR was smarter than people give him credit for.
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#117
11-25-2007, 06:02 AM
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Re: Best US President
[ QUOTE ]
Soviets wouldn't have control of Japan, they never would have even fought. Cold War would be Japan + China + Southeast Asia and maybe India vs USSR + Occupied Europe vs US + UK and maybe France/Italy depending on if UK can D-Day by itself. [/ QUOTE ]Your scenario has more holes than swiss cheese. -- China and Japan would have NEVER found any kind of common ground. Imperial Japan regarded China as the equivalent of the Nazis' lebensraum to the East (Poland, Russia). -- India was a British colony and would have remained so long after 1948, if the United States, as victorious Ally, had not insisted on "de-colonisation". (A term actually meaning "The-US-must-replace-Great-Britain".) The scenario of an India gaining independence after the war and then militarily opposing Great Britain is ludicrous. -- Japan and the Soviet Union were no more "ideological enemies" than the USSR was an ideological enemy of western democracy. Don't you think that, at worst, Stalin would have found common ground with the Japanese to agree for a mutually accommodating peace? The communists have no qualms about tactical agreements with the Devil himself. They did that with Germany in WWI. They did it again with the Nazis in 1939. -- "UK can D-Day by itself" ??? Are you seriously suggesting that Britain (OK, with the French...) could have successfully carried out the European landing on its own? This is ridiculous. -- "Cold War would likely be weak US + powerful Japan vs powerful Soviets". This is even more ridiculous! Imperial Japan went to war precisely to oppose American threats to its perceived birthright for hegemony in Eastern Asia and the Pacific. And you're saying that a powerful Japan would somehow ally itself with the United States?? Never in a hundred years. The Soviet Union had no intentions or claims to Eastern Asia and the Pacific. Imperial Japan would have a natural ally in Moscow!
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#118
11-25-2007, 01:31 PM
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Re: Best US President
[ QUOTE ]
-- China and Japan would have NEVER found any kind of common ground. Imperial Japan regarded China as the equivalent of the Nazis' lebensraum to the East (Poland, Russia). [/ QUOTE ] China would have been eventually conquered and divided up into puppet states. [ QUOTE ] -- India was a British colony and would have remained so long after 1948, if the United States, as victorious Ally, had not insisted on "de-colonisation". (A term actually meaning "The-US-must-replace-Great-Britain".) The scenario of an India gaining independence after the war and then militarily opposing Great Britain is ludicrous. [/ QUOTE ] Lol? US had absolutely nothing to do with it and I would like you to find any possible source claiming that. India would have gained independence in much the same way, unless Japan overran China by 44, in which case India may have been overrun by the Japanese. In any event, a fully independent India would have likely moved closer to the Japanese, who would not only be their neighbors with the greater east asia co-prosperity sphere, but would also remain the only non-white global power. India was in no way strong enough at this point to stand alone, and with the UK victorious but fatally weakened even more than our timeline I could def see them being friendlier with Japan than with the UK. Although they may also have been courted by the Soviets to oppose the Japanese too. [ QUOTE ] Japan and the Soviet Union were no more "ideological enemies" than the USSR was an ideological enemy of western democracy. Don't you think that, at worst, Stalin would have found common ground with the Japanese to agree for a mutually accommodating peace? The communists have no qualms about tactical agreements with the Devil himself. They did that with Germany in WWI. They did it again with the Nazis in 1939. [/ QUOTE ] Japan and the Soviets fought several major border actions prior to WW2. In the post war scenario, Japan would also be the only one of Germany's "allies" during the war which would be undefeated, so there would obviously be huge Soviet anger towards them. [ QUOTE ] "UK can D-Day by itself" ??? Are you seriously suggesting that Britain (OK, with the French...) could have successfully carried out the European landing on its own? This is ridiculous. [/ QUOTE ] If Germany sees no real threat and withdraws the vast majority of its soldiers from France to attempt to stop the Soviets, I would say there is definitely a chance that the Allies could launch some type of amphibious invasion of mainland Europe, yes. [ QUOTE ] "Cold War would likely be weak US + powerful Japan vs powerful Soviets". This is even more ridiculous! Imperial Japan went to war precisely to oppose American threats to its perceived birthright for hegemony in Eastern Asia and the Pacific. And you're saying that a powerful Japan would somehow ally itself with the United States?? Never in a hundred years. The Soviet Union had no intentions or claims to Eastern Asia and the Pacific. Imperial Japan would have a natural ally in Moscow! [/ QUOTE ] Once again, plz to be checking your history. Japan didn't go to war with the US to "oppose American threats to their birthright." They simply assumed that America wouldn't stand by and let them sieze the European colonies in Asia, although its likely that if they had not attacked at Pearl Harbor, America would have done nothing. In our little alternate history timeline here, the US is not interventionist, so it would therefore definitely not intervene in Asia. Without the US as a threat, Japan would be free to sieze Indochina, Indonesia, and the rest of South East Asia. US public though of Japan as backwards and weak, and would likely see no threat from them, much as in our timeline. So there would be tensions due to continuing US occupation of Philippines, but the Soviets would be a MUCH bigger threat in the postwar world to Japan than the US (huge border, border issues resulting in past border wars, fought a war 40 years ago, just fought massive war vs past ally). And Russia had no claims to Eastern Asia? What about the Russo-Japanese war only 40 years earlier? What about Khalkin Gol and the other numerous border disputes and fights between Japan and the Soviets? What about Japan being technically allied with the Germans who had just decimated the Soviets? Japan was TERRIFIED of the Soviets, and would be a natural ally of anyone opposing the Soviets. In fact the signed the Anti-Comintern pact specifically to oppose the Soviets.
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#120
11-25-2007, 01:39 PM
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Re: Best US President
[ QUOTE ]
Where'd you guys get your time machines? I've been looking for one, no luck. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Alternate history is 4tw [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. I love this type of [censored], I'm graduating with a degree in military history (lolz) in May.
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