50NL ak top pair vs check raise

[AllTheCheese]

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Wait, why do you want to check this flop behind? FD or combo draws could easily call here so why give them a free turn? Or why give a medium pair a free card to make a set. Even AJh might take a card off here, depending on villain...
IMO you have to bet the flop and fold to the raise.

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First of all, if we're bet/folding, it's ridiculous to consider betting as a way to "protect from draws". Because he prob c/rs all-in with a draw and then we muck and Villain's play MAXIMIZES profit on his hand.

Second, he's 15/12 and called a healthy reraise OOP. What draw do you expect him to have on this board? 8h9h?

Third, medium pairs and AJ (which IMO he won't have very often) are two and three-outers respectively. Usually the "mistake" you make by checking behind on the turn is well-outweighed by the much bigger mistake they make by bluffing later streets with no FE.

I hope that makes sense. I'm a little off this morning [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[AlexB182]

First: raise to 5 is not a healthy raise. In fact, I think it's rather a bit on the small side.
As both villain and hero are deep, I don't see why he can not call here with say KJs or JTs. His PF raise of 12 indicates that he at least sometimes could raise with these kind of hands.
@Berge: I'm not saying that the most probable holdings of villain are not AQ (though I honestly think that calling raises PF with AQs is more dangerous then calling them with say JTs or T9s), AK or PPs, maybe up to QQ. But the problem is when hero not CBs here, how will this hand develop? Say hero checks behind a brick comes off and villain bets out, can hero get away from his hand? Does he want to get rid of his hand? Say another heart comes off and villain bets, how can hero know then where he is in this hand? He could be easily ahead and catch villain bluffing but he can't know for sure.
I'm truely not a big fan of betting for information but the way hero played this hand, he might have easily saved himself a big part of his stack because in the same way our check on the flop could induce villain to make mistakes later on in the hand, it can also induce hero to make costly mistakes later on.

[Berge20]

First off, I don't claim to have all the answers. Just tossing out my two cents.

Second, effective stacks are less than 100bbs. We're really not *deep* and while it is possible to hold two hearts here, I think those times are minimal.

Say a blank falls, 7c.

Villian leads into us. We call. This gets us value from weaker hands and random bluffs. Does that make decisions harder if he fires pot again on the river? Sure, but I think this is how we max value in the hand.

[AllTheCheese]

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First: raise to 5 is not a healthy raise. In fact, I think it's rather a bit on the small side. As both villain and hero are deep, I don't see why he can not call here with say KJs or JTs.


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100 BBs is not deep. He made a raise to 10% of his stack. Personally, I would've raised to $5.50, but it's really not worth pointing it out. If he calls pre with JTs, I'll gamble on him not hitting a 3 outer against me if it allows me to PC with medium-strength hand and induce bluffs.

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Say hero checks behind a brick comes off and villain bets out, can hero get away from his hand? Does he want to get rid of his hand?

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We don't want to get away. We check to call later streets.

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Say another heart comes off and villain bets, how can hero know then where he is in this hand? He could be easily ahead and catch villain bluffing but he can't know for sure.


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So what? You don't have to know for sure. We never know for sure what Villain has until he flips his hand up. We use ranges and figure out whether we're ahead or not and call based on that. Really one heart is a good card for us. It induces a lot of value from hands like KhKx, JhJx, and we never pay off, obv, when the four-flush hits.

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I'm truely not a big fan of betting for information but the way hero played this hand, he might have easily saved himself a big part of his stack because in the same way our check on the flop could induce villain to make mistakes later on in the hand, it can also induce hero to make costly mistakes later on.

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This is correct but bet/folding could also be a huge mistake if he c/rs with worse. IMO, if you bet, you should be bet/calling.

[Sounded Simple]

Nice discussion guys.

This is a major strategy point I have been looking at.
When first learning the game one of the first things we learn is -
- DONT give free cards
- DONT slowplay.

Checking is counter intuitve but I think it plays best against his range.

I think a check is optimal here since betting does not give a TAG a chance to make a mistake with his range.

55-JJ - Is either going to fold correctly (or if he has a good read on us try to force us off the best hand)
AQ,QQ,44 - Is going to put us to the knife, we are playing into his hands.
Draws - OK so betting is probably best against draws but that makes up only a fraction of his range.

BTW - Im not saying I have all the answers either Im just discussing this important point.

[AlexB182]

I didn't say you claim to have all answers, berge, I think we have different opinions on how to play this hand.
Your remark that we are not deep is correct, but at least effective stacks = full stacks so that's worth a little loose call PF even for a rather tight player.



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Say hero checks behind a brick comes off and villain bets out, can hero get away from his hand? Does he want to get rid of his hand?

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We don't want to get away. We check to call later streets.





This sounds odd to me, allthecheese. What kind of texture has the flop to be for you to CB? Or do you only rarely CB IP? Because basically that is the kind of flop you play AK for, right? Would be nicer if it was rainbow, but if you don't like that flop then I think you should close to never CB with AK when you hit TP.
Plus: checking strong hands to the PF raiser is a usual tactic. Say you check the flop behind, do you only call when villain bets? Or do you raise? Do you go for a river raise if villain bets again and turn and river seemed to be bricks (like no heart)? I can't see how this line could maximize value in any way but I'd really like you to explain this a little more, maybe I'm just not getting the point.

[Berge20]

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I didn't say you claim to have all answers, berge

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I know--but I have to remind myself sometimes that I don't [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]