8k Post - Microlimit bankroll: The misunderstood game of poker (tl;dr)

[bravos1]

[ QUOTE ]
The one thing about moving up is a lot of the time you just get cold decked, sucked out on, basically endure a ton of short term variance and immediately lose say 150 bb's from the level you were just playing within 500-1k hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not true and probably just being results oriented. Short term variance is just as likely to win you 150BBs as it is to lose it.

Most players that lose drastically when they move up, do so because they are playing poorly or too timidly because they are thinking about the money. If a player drastically changes his game (incorrectly, and usually playing too weak/tight) when he moves up, his losses are typically due to psychological issues and play, not variance.

When moving up from one level to another (single level jump 1/2->2/4 or whatever), there is seldom any reason at all to change your playing style as the play itself is not very different at all. This is not true though if you jump from a .25/.50 straight into a 5/10 game. These games will differ greatly and most people can not make that jump even if bankrolled for it and currently winning 6BB/100 at .25/.50.

One thing Aaron touched on a bit, but not directly, is that if you are playing within your roll, it doesn't matter if you play 3/6 or .5/1 around the same time. I will frequently play various levels from .5/1 - 3/6 depending on how you feel, how good the tables are, and what you are trying to accomplish. If there was some part of my game that I wanted to work on, I would often drop 1-3 levels to work on it. For instance, if I felt my post-flop play was lacking for whatever reason playing 3/6, I could easily drop to .5/1 or 1/2 and play looser to work on post flop play without feeling I was spewing too many chips. Also, If I you see a super juicy .5/1 table compared to the 1/2 game you are currently in, by all means hit it up! This of course is all relative as is your bankroll in general. The main point I am conveying here is just like Aaron's point about ego.... don't play a certain level just to satisfy your own ego, especially if it affects your overall play.

For me personally, I've always been somewhat of an online BR nit. I think this is because I just don't want to 1. go through the hassle of having to reload and 2. tilt control. We all tilt to various degrees, and even though I think mine is pretty decently controlled, it is there. My live "bankroll" on the other hand is very different. I frequently play in games that my BR really can't support. I initially started w/ a $500 "roll" playing 6/12 and 8/16 (30-40BBs LOL), and was playing 20/40 with only about $3K handy, but was not concerned. Why? Because this was not really my live BR... I could easily replenish this roll at anytime. I just happened to have $500 loose to put directly into live poker at that time. Well I've never had to put any more money into that live roll at all because I ran good early on. I've used that money for trips to vegas and other fun stuff because it was handy, but have never had to dip into that money for anything.... but if I wanted to go and play in a NL5K game or whatever, I could, and if I lost it all, well then no big deal, I'd just replenish and start anew. This is why is is all relative, and if you have no problems redepositing, then you can play as big as you feel comfortable playing w/ no bankroll concerns. As an example, Buzz was razzing Benny in the NC thread for playing under-rolled. While true, his "current online BR" prolly was not advantageous for playing an 8/16 game, if he blew a large portion of what he had online, it would not have been a devastating blow to him... also in that same weekend, he was playing a bunch of 2/4.

so...
1. when you fret over every decision at the table and are constantly thinking about the money involved and the size of pots in dollars/euros/whatever and not bets, you are probably playing "under-rolled" even if it is only under-rolled mentally.

<font color="red">Being mentally under-rolled is the worst thing a player can possess because it will 100% distort your play for the worse!</font>

2. 300BBs is just a guideline to reduce your risk of ruin. If they money does not have a big impact on your well being and how you actually play, then play whatever game you wish, even if your whole roll is on the table. Again 300BBs is just a guideline.

3. Have fun irrespective of the limit you are playing.... it is a game after all!

and oh yeah... nice post Aaron.

[bellatrix]

Aaron's post and the whole thread that is ensuing is one of the best things I have ever read about poker... and I've read a lot. Thinking about making some extra 200$, Aaron? You should send it to the 2+2 mag. Or any poker mag... amazing!
The responses have been excellent, too. Good job micros!

I don't have that much to add. I play live 4/8 - 20/40, but only micros online due to tilt issues and bad BR managment. Around the beginning of September, when I started like really posting here, I realized a good chunk of stuff that Aaron mentioned in the post. If he had written out this stuff 2 years ago and I would have read it, I would have probably saved around 3k [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Realizing that my opponents have the same BR/tilt issues is probably the #1 winning factor at limits beyond 3/6 online (not that I have been able to beat those games myself, lol). The play is quite good, but is the psychological factor?

[Bona]

Bella- You copped out a little here. How do you manage your live play bankroll and/or what do you recommend?

[bellatrix]

[ QUOTE ]
Bella- You copped out a little here. How do you manage your live play bankroll and/or what do you recommend?

[/ QUOTE ]

My copping out is that I'm not comfortable of telling anybody what to do, when I've done so much wrong myself.

For live, I started with a 3000$ bankroll to play 3/6. I was probably way overbankrolled, but it was extra BJ money and I didn't know a thing about bankroll and probably about poker either. Err, my live bankroll now has grown to 5k. Yes, that is way underbankrolled for a 20/40 game, but well, I don't play it that often (prolly 1-2 times a month) and I enjoy it much more. I don't mind losing it all, it was extra money to begin with. But I don't advocate anybody jumping in there underbankrolled. I had a funny experience at Bay101 a few months ago. Some decent playing guy after some hours at the 20/40 (away from the table) just couldn't believe, when I told him my BR was 5k. He was like: "You play so well, yet you have so poor BR managment". After a while I responded: "Look, I'm not a pro, I don't do this for a living. If I lose this BR, I won't cry if I don't play poker again. And if it's really that important, I'll save some money from my real job and pay it off then." Cop-outs, I know... [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] So, please, you'd be better off following Aaron's advice and not mine [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Thinking about making some extra 200$, Aaron? You should send it to the 2+2 mag.

[/ QUOTE ]

I emailed Bryan the other day and asked him if they were interested in this type of content. I'm not sure what the response will be because this is an article that doesn't really fit the descriptions of things they are interested in. It's also too long to be a single article, so maybe it's worth $400? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Anyway, I'll probably hear back in a couple weeks whether he thinks it's good content, and if so, I could probably clean it up pretty quickly (Christmas break) and resubmit it. We'll see what happens.

[OziBattler]

Hello BR Nits! You make me feel at home.

I made my first deposit semi-drunkern in 2004 xmas period which was a few months after I returned from 6 months in the USofA. I deposited $50 into stars using my Visa card....I only tried it on a whim and didnt really think it would go do through. It did. I donked around for a while at NL and 0/8 and lost $15 and wanted to cashout only to discover that that cashing out for an ignorant Aussie was all too hard so I left it there and used it as fun money. I managed to back up to $70 and took a shot at 25c/50c LHE. I was a total donk and lost3 months of winningsd in 100 hands and was pissed. Then by chance found 2+2 and lurked for a while whilst running up to $80 bonuses whoring UB 5c/10c tables (yes you read that correctly).

I then bonus whored (Paradise, Stars, UB and Party) all the way up to about $2000 playing 0.5/1. I probably made about $500 at the table and the rest was whored...lucky me not livin in the States.

Now, as many of you will know, Ive got 2 young kids and Im very conservative when it comes to my BR which allows me to be very aggresive at the table. I hate to lose. I also only get to play no more than 3-5K hands a month and I find that this means that I feel wins/losses more because I have more time to reflect on a previous session. Theres something to be said for getting right back in there the next day because for me that helps me get over a bad session.

So basically ive been playing overrolled and I decided that I wanted to start rewarding myself which means withdrawign excess Bankroll and buying stuff. I set my base BR at $1500 which is 750BB for my current limit of 1/2. So far Ive withdrawn somewhere in the vicinity of 2k. I really consider myself lucky to still be able to bonus whore. Bonus whoring at the lower limits can really be significant. If you non-Americans cant find decent bonuses playing 0.5/1 or 1/2 out there that can supplement your BR to the tune of AT LEAST 1-2BB/100 then you arent trying hard enough. I actually dont know how much of my total winnings is whored but it is probably well in excess of 50% (for a while I abused SSHE principles and spewed money but still managed to increase my BR with easy bonuses).

As I said, Im pretty conservative and whilst I'd love to play and beat 5/10+ I am realistic and whith a family with 2 young kids Im probably going to stick around at 1/2 and hopefully 2/4. I know Ive got the game to beat 2/4 but thats not the point. The point is that I enjoy poker and I enojoy winning and whilst Im leaving money on the table by not moving up as fast as others I really dont care that much.

All in all Ive taken $50 and turned it into thousands of dollars doing something that I enjoy (or love to hate at times)...this is as opposed to other people I know who prefer to pump money into games like Warcraft. I make a little money doing my hobby...they spend it to do theirs. hehe.