Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?

[BlueSmurf]

Two probably stupid newb questions:

[ QUOTE ]
I would never fold AK to bigjoe here if he shoves into me. I know that he knows that im not gonna call with AA KK QQ etc... and therefore he WILL push ATC here and AK will have him beat almost every time

[/ QUOTE ]

I can not make sense of this. He knows you don't call with even aces, kings or queens, so he pushes everything and therefore you call with AKo. Presumably, you call with better hands as well, so how can he know you don't call when you do call? It smells like very circular logic to me.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm willing to sacriface $37.68 equity to cost Joe $341.5, because in the future it will be correct for him not to push as light. If in the future he folds his J6 in this spot I either get a walk, or call a short stacks push, with the same 60/40 edge, a result which will probably raise my equity by more than the $37.68 I lost in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is the equity Joe loses incorporated into yours? If it is, you give up $38 to transfer equity from Joe to the other two guys, and then it seems odd to state that you spend $38 to give him a $341 equity loss, because you don't benefit anyway. You just move the equity around (unless you figure it's x% of that loss worth to you to not have the $341 in the hands of Joe but the other players who are weaker). If you do get a part of his equity loss, then your call shouldn't show negative expectations at all, should it?

If the above is the most drunken nonsense you ever heard, can someone very briefly explain why?

Thanks in advance,

Smurf

[JDalla]

[ QUOTE ]
Two probably stupid newb questions:

[ QUOTE ]
I would never fold AK to bigjoe here if he shoves into me. I know that he knows that im not gonna call with AA KK QQ etc... and therefore he WILL push ATC here and AK will have him beat almost every time

[/ QUOTE ]

I can not make sense of this. He knows you don't call with even aces, kings or queens, so he pushes everything and therefore you call with AKo. Presumably, you call with better hands as well, so how can he know you don't call when you do call? It smells like very circular logic to me.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm willing to sacriface $37.68 equity to cost Joe $341.5, because in the future it will be correct for him not to push as light. If in the future he folds his J6 in this spot I either get a walk, or call a short stacks push, with the same 60/40 edge, a result which will probably raise my equity by more than the $37.68 I lost in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is the equity Joe loses incorporated into yours? If it is, you give up $38 to transfer equity from Joe to the other two guys, and then it seems odd to state that you spend $38 to give him a $341 equity loss, because you don't benefit anyway. You just move the equity around (unless you figure it's x% of that loss worth to you to not have the $341 in the hands of Joe but the other players who are weaker). If you do get a part of his equity loss, then your call shouldn't show negative expectations at all, should it?

If the above is the most drunken nonsense you ever heard, can someone very briefly explain why?

Thanks in advance,

Smurf

[/ QUOTE ]

when he loses I get the majority of his lost equity, but when I lose, I lose quite a bit myself. The average for me is -$37 if I'm 60/40, or -$.7 if I'm 65/35 (or something close to these numbers).

His average is -$341.
The other 2 opponents are gaining this money in EV terms.

[bumpking]

[ QUOTE ]

when he loses I get the majority of his lost equity, but when I lose, I lose quite a bit myself. The average for me is -$37 if I'm 60/40, or -$.7 if I'm 65/35 (or something close to these numbers).

His average is -$341.
The other 2 opponents are gaining this money in EV terms.

[/ QUOTE ]

This business of him losing -$341 only applies when you call with AKo. It is a +EV push for him in the identical scenario next time as well cuz his overall push is not -$341 with ATC, it's about even or slightly +EV. So if you think meta-game is gonna change his push range, you're wrong IMO.

-BK

[JDalla]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

when he loses I get the majority of his lost equity, but when I lose, I lose quite a bit myself. The average for me is -$37 if I'm 60/40, or -$.7 if I'm 65/35 (or something close to these numbers).

His average is -$341.
The other 2 opponents are gaining this money in EV terms.

[/ QUOTE ]

This business of him losing -$341 only applies when you call with AKo. It is a +EV push for him in the identical scenario next time as well cuz his overall push is not -$341 with ATC, it's about even or slightly +EV. So if you think meta-game is gonna change his push range, you're wrong IMO.

-BK

[/ QUOTE ]

His range may not change, but if he knows I'm folding AKo there doesn't he think push with 32o here profitably?

[billybeartku]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

when he loses I get the majority of his lost equity, but when I lose, I lose quite a bit myself. The average for me is -$37 if I'm 60/40, or -$.7 if I'm 65/35 (or something close to these numbers).

His average is -$341.
The other 2 opponents are gaining this money in EV terms.

[/ QUOTE ]

This business of him losing -$341 only applies when you call with AKo. It is a +EV push for him in the identical scenario next time as well cuz his overall push is not -$341 with ATC, it's about even or slightly +EV. So if you think meta-game is gonna change his push range, you're wrong IMO.

-BK

[/ QUOTE ]

His range may not change, but if he knows I'm folding AKo there doesn't he think push with 32o here profitably?

[/ QUOTE ]

obv, I don't know why you posted this actually when a lot of us have been telling you it's a -EV call on your part and you kept defending yourself and kept saying you plan on continuing to do this in the future.

[suzzer99]

Dude you advocated folding QQ. No good player is ever folding QQ there, and I seriously doubt many are folding AK.

[DannyOcean_]

First, a moment to LOL at this person

[ QUOTE ]
Game theory's Nash Equilibrium applies to two player games. Calling here is -EV, but since Bigjoe pushes almost ATC here, I dont mind the call. Since he is a regular, and a good one at that, he will probably note the call, push tighter against you, and tell you he's sliding ATC.


[/ QUOTE ]

Some pros and cons of this hand.

con - we can push in front of him 3x when he can push in front of us.

pro - metagame considerations

con - either 30ish dollars or 70 cents lost in equity

con - Won't really change his push range much. Maybe he wont push 32o or 25o or whatev, but he's still pushing 99% in the future against you. a T9 loses more equity but works way better to actually change his range.

[jukofyork]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]

when he loses I get the majority of his lost equity, but when I lose, I lose quite a bit myself. The average for me is -$37 if I'm 60/40, or -$.7 if I'm 65/35 (or something close to these numbers).

His average is -$341.
The other 2 opponents are gaining this money in EV terms.

[/ QUOTE ]

This business of him losing -$341 only applies when you call with AKo. It is a +EV push for him in the identical scenario next time as well cuz his overall push is not -$341 with ATC, it's about even or slightly +EV. So if you think meta-game is gonna change his push range, you're wrong IMO.

-BK

[/ QUOTE ]

His range may not change, but if he knows I'm folding AKo there doesn't he think push with 32o here profitably?

[/ QUOTE ]

obv, I don't know why you posted this actually when a lot of us have been telling you it's a -EV call on your part and you kept defending yourself and kept saying you plan on continuing to do this in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]
But the really interesting thing is that even though it was a -EV call for that hand, is it a longterm -EV play if it forces your opponent to push less into you in the future?

It's kinda like telling your opponent: "I'm gonna spite call your pushes for up-to $30 a hand whatever you do" and then seeing if the strategy he uses to counter this plan is more +EV for you than never spiting him and just folding when it's -EV for you.

Juk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[suzzer99]

IMO there's a big difference between a spite call and a principle call. Spite calls aren't ever really going to make anyone adjust their range, because they know you won't do it every time. A principle call says "This may be slightly -ev, but I'm not folding AK to you with the CL and you on any 2, deal with it." Maybe I don't call AK there every time, maybe I do. Maybe I call AQ. I think that gives a thinking regular a little more to consider than a randomly spite calling them once a month.

[TheActionKid]

[ QUOTE ]
Two probably stupid newb questions:

[ QUOTE ]
I would never fold AK to bigjoe here if he shoves into me. I know that he knows that im not gonna call with AA KK QQ etc... and therefore he WILL push ATC here and AK will have him beat almost every time

[/ QUOTE ]

I can not make sense of this. He knows you don't call with even aces, kings or queens, so he pushes everything and therefore you call with AKo. Presumably, you call with better hands as well, so how can he know you don't call when you do call? It smells like very circular logic to me.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm willing to sacriface $37.68 equity to cost Joe $341.5, because in the future it will be correct for him not to push as light. If in the future he folds his J6 in this spot I either get a walk, or call a short stacks push, with the same 60/40 edge, a result which will probably raise my equity by more than the $37.68 I lost in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is the equity Joe loses incorporated into yours? If it is, you give up $38 to transfer equity from Joe to the other two guys, and then it seems odd to state that you spend $38 to give him a $341 equity loss, because you don't benefit anyway. You just move the equity around (unless you figure it's x% of that loss worth to you to not have the $341 in the hands of Joe but the other players who are weaker). If you do get a part of his equity loss, then your call shouldn't show negative expectations at all, should it?

If the above is the most drunken nonsense you ever heard, can someone very briefly explain why?

Thanks in advance,

Smurf

[/ QUOTE ]

Type

Correction

*I know that he knows that im not gonna call withOUT AA KK QQ etc... "