Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

[Dan Druff]

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An attorney would be useless here. Full Tilt is not located in the US.

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This is sad but QFT. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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wrong.

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How am I wrong?

Of the countless disputes between players and online poker sites, how many have ever resulted in attorneys recovering the seized money? The answer to that would be ZERO.

I don't know what jurisdiction Full Tilt exists in, but my guess is that it would be extremely difficult -- if not impossible -- to successfully take them to court and win a judgment against them.

Remember, they are in control of all the evidence. Even if Sillysal successfully gets them dragged into some foreign courtroom, they just need to pull out some convincing, official-looking evidence of botting and she's done for. Most poker sites exist in very online gambling friendly environments. The hurdles one would have to jump in order to get a successful civil judgment against Full Tilt would be insurmountable -- especially when you're just a single individual accused of a form of cheating.

[indianaV8]

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An attorney would be useless here. Full Tilt is not located in the US.

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This is sad but QFT. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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wrong.

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How am I wrong?

Of the countless disputes between players and online poker sites, how many have ever resulted in attorneys recovering the seized money? The answer to that would be ZERO.

I don't know what jurisdiction Full Tilt exists in, but my guess is that it would be extremely difficult -- if not impossible -- to successfully take them to court and win a judgment against them.

Remember, they are in control of all the evidence. Even if Sillysal successfully gets them dragged into some foreign courtroom, they just need to pull out some convincing, official-looking evidence of botting and she's done for. Most poker sites exist in very online gambling friendly environments. The hurdles one would have to jump in order to get a successful civil judgment against Full Tilt would be insurmountable -- especially when you're just a single individual accused of a form of cheating.

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They are not fully in control of the evidence ... evidence is one thing proof is another. But the casinos have everything in control - their license agreement, that you signed, and which is such that every player breaks it [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. Many casinos in fact state in their license agreement that they can close your account even without a reason.

On the other hand, it could have some effect, as if you sue the casino and win this can really damage the casino business (which they won't risk for some 47k) ...

[El_Hombre_Grande]

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An attorney would be useless here. Full Tilt is not located in the US.

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This is sad but QFT. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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wrong.

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How am I wrong?

Of the countless disputes between players and online poker sites, how many have ever resulted in attorneys recovering the seized money? The answer to that would be ZERO.

I don't know what jurisdiction Full Tilt exists in, but my guess is that it would be extremely difficult -- if not impossible -- to successfully take them to court and win a judgment against them.

Remember, they are in control of all the evidence. Even if Sillysal successfully gets them dragged into some foreign courtroom, they just need to pull out some convincing, official-looking evidence of botting and she's done for. Most poker sites exist in very online gambling friendly environments. The hurdles one would have to jump in order to get a successful civil judgment against Full Tilt would be insurmountable -- especially when you're just a single individual accused of a form of cheating.

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The simple answer is to sue in an american jurisdiction in which poker is legal. Full Tilt defends, or gets defaulted. If they get defaulted (a choice they may make) you seize assets they have in America. They have assets in America, certainly 47 K.

The real problem here is the probable guilt of the accused. If someone demonstrates to me that different humans could have those pretty much identical across the board stats, I am open to being convinced. Its not like we are just talking about VPIP and preflop raise %s.

I don't think its proof positive, but I'd bet that those type of identical stats are going to show that identical hands were played identically, both pre and post flop.

[PoorLawyer]

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An attorney would be useless here. Full Tilt is not located in the US.

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This is sad but QFT. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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wrong.

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How am I wrong?

Of the countless disputes between players and online poker sites, how many have ever resulted in attorneys recovering the seized money? The answer to that would be ZERO.

I don't know what jurisdiction Full Tilt exists in, but my guess is that it would be extremely difficult -- if not impossible -- to successfully take them to court and win a judgment against them.

Remember, they are in control of all the evidence. Even if Sillysal successfully gets them dragged into some foreign courtroom, they just need to pull out some convincing, official-looking evidence of botting and she's done for. Most poker sites exist in very online gambling friendly environments. The hurdles one would have to jump in order to get a successful civil judgment against Full Tilt would be insurmountable -- especially when you're just a single individual accused of a form of cheating.

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Damn all my years of law school and practicing wasted.

Or maybe you are just making all of that up based on no knowledge or experience....

1. Do you know everyone who has sued a poker site? Otherwise, what is your ZERO figure based on?
2. Are you a lawyer or do you just play one on TV? Have you ever heard of long arm jurisdiction? A default judgment? that most countries enforce foreign judgments?

For most people it is not worth paying an attorney to do all of the work, but that doesn't mean it could not be done. There are channels whereby you could sue and collect from most corporations in the world.

The main obstacle is whether a court would consider online gambling legal in your jurisdiction.

[tetrisworlds]

f full tilt i hate full tilt poker they cheat so much f them take them too court dude

[BiggieFats]

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f full tilt i hate full tilt poker they cheat so much f them take them too court dude

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Run on sentences FTW!

[carlgraham]

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Damn all my years of law school and practicing wasted.

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Not necessarily - perhaps you could apply what you learned in 1L Legal Research & Writing to come up with some authority for your apparent position that offshore casinos can be successfully sued in U.S. courts by individuals?

It's easy to attack a poster who claims that the chances of success are nil, but I've personally never heard of any case where a person with money seized has sued & recovered the seized funds - neither has the person you replied to. But rather than attack him on the grounds that you're a lawyer (not alone, by the way - lots of attorneys post here), come up with proof that he's wrong - it ought to be easy to do, if true.

Why no success? I don't know - it could be no one's sued, it could be they lost on the merits, or it could be that they won, but recovered nothing. At any rate, if he's wrong, prove it. It's easy to prove if there is a case, but how could he prove there isn't, except by saying he's not aware of one?

I would like to believe that we could sue offshore casinos, and have a meaningful chance of recovery. Perhaps the Bodog patent case points the way to forcing them into our courts? But my wishful thinking for accountable casinos won't make it so.

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Or maybe you are just making all of that up based on no knowledge or experience....

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That's an unnecessary low blow. I'll take a stab at answering your questions to him:

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1. Do you know everyone who has sued a poker site? Otherwise, what is your ZERO figure based on?

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a. Like many of us, maybe he keeps up with poker news - both on these forums and elsewhere. I generally am aware when gambling hits the news, particularly in the courts, be it local grannies being busted for running a weekly bingo game, people challenging the UIGEA, Jamie Gold's case, or the Absolute Poker scandal.

b. The lack of any reported case in the usual gambling news areas is not conclusive, but since they report on a host of other seemingly minor gambling news items, including litigation, it does suggest there's nothing else out there.

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2. Are you a lawyer or do you just play one on TV?

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Another unnecessarily low blow.

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Have you ever heard of long arm jurisdiction? A default judgment? that most countries enforce foreign judgments?

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How about the choice of forum clause? Para. 11 of the FTP EULA states: "The Agreement and any matters relating hereto shall be governed by, and construed in accordance with the laws of Alderney. Each party irrevocably agrees that the relevant courts of Alderney shall have exclusive jurisdiction in relation to any claim, dispute or difference concerning the Agreement and any matter arising therefrom and irrevocably waives any right that it may have to object to an action being brought in those courts, or to claim that the action has been brought in an inconvenient forum, or that those courts do not have jurisdiction."

I've never heard of Alderney (according to Wikipedia, it's a Channel Island), but it seems pretty clear to me - by playing on FTP, you agree that actions will be brought in that jurisdiction, not in the U.S.

But, assuming you could even overcome that provision, get service of process, and proceed in U.S. Courts - how would you collect on any judgment? You assert that most countries enforce judgments, but can you name the countries with which we have treaties re: the enforcement of foreign judgments? (Last I heard, it was zero).

Does Alderney enforce U.S. judgments, or would the local courts there take umbrage at an American bypassing them by suing one of their own in U.S. Courts, and obtaining a judgment in violation of the choice of forum clause?

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For most people it is not worth paying an attorney to do all of the work,

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Agreed. Regardless of legal implications, there's nowhere near enough money in most people's situations to justify throwing good money after bad trying to sue, then collect.

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But that doesn't mean it could not be done. There are channels whereby you could sue and collect from most corporations in the world.

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Instead of tearing this guy down, how about being productive, and using your superior legal skills to outline the process under which you think an American could learn who to sue, file suit, overcome the choice of forum clause in the EULA, then, assuming prevailing on the merits, recover in Alderney?

Cheers, Carl.

[Dan Druff]

Great job, Carl. I look forward to seeing PoorLawyer's response to everything you wrote.

Sounds like the guy is big on theory but a bit lax on practice.

I'd love to see one example of legal remedy being brought against a poker site. Until that occurs, I will remain very skeptical that such an avenue is practical.

[PoorLawyer]

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Great job, Carl. I look forward to seeing PoorLawyer's response to everything you wrote.

Sounds like the guy is big on theory but a bit lax on practice.

I'd love to see one example of legal remedy being brought against a poker site. Until that occurs, I will remain very skeptical that such an avenue is practical.

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Sounds like Carl is still in law school and has never practiced. Not everything is the mountain they make it out to be in those big maroon books. If there is a whole commission for such things and there are attorneys in firms all over the country who are members of this little commission in the channel islands but there has never been any cases filed, well then I stand corrected.

[carlgraham]

Again with ad hominen arguments - my status is irrelevant to the discussion. I never indicated whether I had any legal training or experience. But, counsel, your attempt to change the argument is pretty transparent.

One claim in your post I took issue was for criticizing someone who said there were no successful cases of individuals suing in U.S. courts to recover for seized funds. I asked you to back up your criticism, and provide proof he was wrong. You sidestepped that question, and have not provided one example of successful litigation. I'd say the brain trust on 2p2 is pretty vast - if there were any cases in support of your position, someone here would likely know about it.

I also took issue with your claim that U.S. courts could successfully exercise long-arm jurisdiction against a foreign corporation, particularly when the EULA has a choice of forum provision in it. Again, instead of addressing that issue (i.e. backing up your assertion that U.S. courts provided a meaningful remedy), you redefined the issue by suggesting other ways people could go after FTP, such as complaining to a foreign gaming commission.

While foreign commissions may provide a remedy, that begs the question of whether U.S. courts can do so. An intriguing idea, worthy of discussion, but not responsive to specific questions I posed.

I'm on your side - I'd love to have domestic judicial remedies against foreign poker sites, hence I think that regulation may be the only practical solution. But if you claim courts can already do it, I think that you should be prepared to substantiate your arguments w/o requesting a retainer.

Cheers, Carl.