LO8

[Rush17]

This is probably one of those rare occasions where I disagree with both you and Buzz. (I must be wrong, then!=) But, I'll tell you why I feel this way anyway...


Howzit, you and Buzz feel that had you 3 bet the flop, you probably would've received more information. But, you said yourself that, if the button has a 2-way draw (like TP/TK with a wheel draw combo, for example), then he's going to play it aggressively here. So, I don't think the flop reraise is going to give you all that much, and to where it would help you to play the turn card with any more preciseness(is that a word?). Anyway...

You also said, that, even if he did flop a 2-way draw, his tendency would be to check behind on the turn unimproved. So, when you do bet the turn and he raises you...you're no good! And, I can't believe that you and Buzz think you are! The way you described him, he either has 3 Aces or top two pair along with either the nut flush draw and/or a really good low draw. I can't put him on just top pair with a nut flush draw because he wouldn't be raising you on the turn.

The river King is an awful card for you, because he has to know that if you have top two, you're not folding, and, if he just rivered top two, then he's probably good, hence the bet. In order for him to fire another bet, he has to have you beat *going by your description of him*. I mean really, what are you giving him in this spot, Aces with a Q/Ten kicker?

You may have had MP crushed, but there's still a third player involved who never backed down to you. I don't like a river call one bit. Let me rephrase that because that's not exactly what I mean. I think, you may have to call the river due to pot size, but that has been my point about this hand. And, I know you disagree, but in this spot, given the whole situation...my goal would be to keep the pot small.

[howzit]

[ QUOTE ]


Howzit, you and Buzz feel that had you 3 bet the flop, you probably would've received more information. But, you said yourself that, if the button has a 2-way draw (like TP/TK with a wheel draw combo, for example), then he's going to play it aggressively here. So, I don't think the flop reraise is going to give you all that much, and to where it would help you to play the turn card with any more preciseness(is that a word?).

[/ QUOTE ] excellent choice of words.

[ QUOTE ]
You also said, that, even if he did flop a 2-way draw, his tendency would be to check behind on the turn unimproved. So, when you do bet the turn and he raises you...you're no good!

[/ QUOTE ] i know! anybody else i think i would fold but this kid actually can think at a higher level and is capable of putting me to the test with a semibluff.(he was the kid i ran the river c/r bluff on so he knows i'm not his standard opponent)

i also picked up a live read of weakness for high from him but i didn't include that in the OP cuz it's not fair to include live reads when discussing theortics. so i stayed committed to see a non-diamond low card to pay off on.

[ QUOTE ]
The river King is an awful card for you, because he has to know that if you have top two, you're not folding, and, if he just rivered top two, then he's probably good, hence the bet. In order for him to fire another bet, he has to have you beat *going by your description of him*. I mean really, what are you giving him in this spot, Aces with a Q/Ten kicker? ...my goal would be to keep the pot small.

[/ QUOTE ] blah. he's never really bluffing me here giving his turn raise and our history. i folded (thank you live poker)

i agree 100% keep the pot small outside this game. luckily this game is so good that i'll live with the fact that i just mucked getting 15:1.

[howzit]

results:

guy behind me called.

kid had AK63, with diamonds. MP mucked.

i really like his turn raise against me. if an unknown did that to me, i would fold. i also wouldn't bet turn against an unknown either so i guess it's a wash.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Howzit, you and Buzz feel that had you 3 bet the flop, you probably would've received more information.

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Rush - I didn't write that, and I wasn't exactly thinking that.

It's pretty hard to put Button on cards here. Lots of possibilities including not much at all.

Yes, he's probably going to play aggressively with a good hand, but I think he might also play aggressively without one - possibly simply with a reasonable draw. Howzit declared Button was a good player and part of being a good player is being not too predictable and bending a rule here or there.

[ QUOTE ]
So, I don't think the flop reraise is going to give you all that much,

[/ QUOTE ]I think it might make both MP and Button more wary and less inclined to take a flier.

[ QUOTE ]
and to where it would help you to play the turn card with any more preciseness(is that a word?).

[/ QUOTE ]I think "preciseness" is a word. Should be, if it isn't. I don't disagree that a re-raise would help Hero play the turn more optimally, but I don't think flop raises generally serve that function.

But although I didn't write it and wasn't thinking it, now that you mention it, I don't think it's impossible that Hero won't gain some information. Depends. And Hero might somehow see how to better play the turn on the basis of the reactions of his opponents. Specifically, I think Button might be inclined to back off at least a bit on the turn without the nuts himself.

And thus, maybe not directly, but more subtly, Hero might have a better idea of how to proceed on the river.

Seems like somehow Howzit did know what to do on the river in this particular case, but another time things might be different.

What do you think?

Buzz

[Rush17]

Hey Buzz,

I guess there is a better chance that the button doesn't take a flier if we handle the flop differently. I agree with that. I guess it's just Howzit's position that makes things uglier from where I'm sitting, but...

And, thanks for the clarification, I don't know why I thought you said something that you didn't. My bad.