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#1
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Re: Justify procreation, please.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] And to answer your question, here's my justification: I have faith that I can have a child who will be happy that he/she was born, who will have meaningful experiences and friendships, and who would rather be alive than not. [/ QUOTE ] Right, it is all about passing on your own views. That is a big part (but not the only part) of my point. [/ QUOTE ] I have no idea how you get that out of my post. This is a justification for having kids - not something I'm going to pass on. Let's be clear. You stated: Life sucks and is gay. Therefore you're an ass if you have kids cause it's selfish to make them live. I said: That's for the kid to decide. I think most kids are glad they were alive, rather than not. And again, you're peddling a very cynical view of human motivation when you claim people just have kids to pass on their views. |
#2
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Re: Justify procreation, please.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] And to answer your question, here's my justification: I have faith that I can have a child who will be happy that he/she was born, who will have meaningful experiences and friendships, and who would rather be alive than not. [/ QUOTE ] Right, it is all about passing on your own views. That is a big part (but not the only part) of my point. [/ QUOTE ] I have no idea how you get that out of my post. This is a justification for having kids - not something I'm going to pass on. Let's be clear. You stated: Life sucks and is gay. Therefore you're an ass if you have kids cause it's selfish to make them live. I said: That's for the kid to decide. I think most kids are glad they were alive, rather than not. And again, you're peddling a very cynical view of human motivation when you claim people just have kids to pass on their views. [/ QUOTE ] I am not saying that. I am saying you already decided for them. You passed your view on in the act of having children. It is absurd to think you can pose the question after the fact (and to them). |
#3
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Re: Justify procreation, please.
[ QUOTE ]
It is absurd to think you can pose the question after the fact (and to them). [/ QUOTE ] How about rescuing an unconscious stranger from a burning building? Seems by your reasoning it would be selfless to leave them there and immoral to recue them. chez |
#4
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Re: Justify procreation, please.
This has nothing to do with depression. (For the record, I am probably in the prime of life and am enjoying it.)
The choice isn’t whether one would choose to have been born. (Other than suicidal folk, I doubt there are many would say no to it.) [ QUOTE ] Life (while not the miracle you would claim it is), is the most precious thing attainable! So very rare. Healthy people who are able to experience life are truly fortunate. [/ QUOTE ] If life is the most precious thing attainable what is the second most precious thing? Life isn’t attainable. What about unhealthy people? [ QUOTE ] Why wouldn't anyone want to give the gift of life?!! [/ QUOTE ] You are making a value judgment. You are imposing your views and deciding that any random child you beget should hold this view. What should be the consequences to you, if one of those children actually would have chosen not to be born? Who are you to put the onus them? [ QUOTE ] Its moral to have children if its reasonable to believe that if they had been given a choice they would rather have been had than not had. That's a pretty reasonable thing for many to believe. [/ QUOTE ] Do you want to re-read what you just wrote? Now, regarding happiness. I suppose we should first define it – probably not possible. But, to me I find it hard to juxtapose theoretical happiness and posting on internet message boards. To me a truly happy person is not one who spends his time in such a manner. It just doesn’t ring true. Asked another way – do you think that truly happy people pass time in the manner most of us do? Most of us have similar lives. We work, play poker, read, go to the movies, make love, have a nice dinner and drinks, whatever. Sure, we have good lives. Life is great. But, we do pass time. Happiness is not about passing time. I find it hard to include the words “passing time” in ny definitions of Happiness. Maybe I am idealistic and hold the word up to a higher esteem than I should. Getting back to my original point. Try not to get too pragmatic with it. This is a theoretical point. Empiricism has nothing to do with any of it. [ QUOTE ] If you need God, fine. But I find your whole premise that life isn't worth living without God rather uncreative. I don't know how old you are, but I suggest spending some time around young people and having some fun - you might get a different perspective on how people can feel about life. [/ QUOTE ] You are right, I shouldn’t have started with anything to do with God. Let me restate my point. “It is immoral to procreate.” |
#5
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Re: Justify procreation, please.
[ QUOTE ]
This is a theoretical point. [/ QUOTE ] There is no point. You haven't presented any sort of dilemma. You've just rambled incoherently. |
#6
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Re: Justify procreation, please.
Guys, this is the Philosophy forum, not the Psychology forum.
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#7
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Re: Justify procreation, please.
[ QUOTE ]
Guys, this is the Philosophy forum, not the Psychology forum. [/ QUOTE ] Ok, so as long as everyone is miserable all the time, and that the small joys they have in life <<<<< all the sorrow and pain (which is practically a certainty to be false due to the way the human psyche is structured, cognitive dissonance and all that) then its at least selfish. Not immoral, just selfish. Since of course, *I* get tons of joy out of having kids. Or at least I think I do. |
#8
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Re: Justify procreation, please.
[ QUOTE ]
If there is no God, then I postulate it is immoral to procreate. (Immoral is not the exact word, because given no God there really is no Absolute Morality. But, you get the idea.) Having been born, I wouldn’t trade off, don’t get me wrong. But, why would one subjugate innocent children to a life of suffering that goes along with the joys in life? As I posted in a previous thread, I doubt if anyone is truly happy. (If I am wrong about that then, I must be wrong here. So, all you have to do is prove that happiness is possible.) [/ QUOTE ] I would subjugate an innocent child to the suffering of life if the joy was greater. I think you are wrong to suggest happiness is impossible - first counterexample, any atheist who is choosing to live rather than "end the suffering". |
#9
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Re: Justify procreation, please.
Let’s put it this another way. It is a selfless act to not have children.
Intentional procreating is all about ego, self gratification (not in the literal act of procreation, although obviously it is in that way, too) in enjoying what one creates, and subjecting one’s personal views on the unborn. (Dawkins term the Selfish Gene comes to mind here – again not literally speaking, but as an analogy.) Not having children is a selfless act. How one views selfishness, ego, selflessness and the like relative to Morality and Virtue is how one views my point. There is no right or wrong (because there is no Absolute Morality.) I think it is interesting though, to put it all in perspective. Fwiw, I find selflessness a Virtue. Didn't read your one post vhawk - I see you agree with me. |
#10
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Re: Justify procreation, please.
Yeah except if I'm really kickass. Which I am. Thus, having lots of kids = selfless.
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