Bankroll for shortstacking?

[OrrLives]

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standard deviation for shortstackers is low, but winrate is too, so bankroll requirements turn out to be pretty similar to full-stackers. also, ban.

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winrate does not have to be low.

[OrrLives]

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asking a question about the proper way to shortstack should result in an insta-ban...

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You are a huge elitist

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TY for the support. It is hilarious to me that people don't consider shortstacking a legit strategy. LOL at all of you 'proper' players.

[OrrLives]

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asking a question about the proper way to shortstack should result in an insta-ban...

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Explain why.

[OrrLives]

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I usually start playing with 40 BB and have had many 1000 - 1500 BB downswings. I play levels PLO400-PLO1000 6max. My ptBB/100 is around 3. VP%IP = 32, PFR =17.

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If you are short stacking, your VPIP is WAY too high and your ptBB is way too low (according to Slotbloom).

[chucky]

Aggressive players tend to dislike shortstackers because deep players (100 bb+) prefer to raise with a broad range of hands and have the freedom to play the flop, turn, and river a variety of ways. Shortstackers will counteract these players by reraising KKxx and AAxx mostly and try to deny deeper players the ability to play a wide range on hands past the flop. Shortstackers do cost themselves money in the long run because even if they double up in a hand, they have missed out on profit because they were not 100 bb deep. Additionally, some shortstackers are unable to transition to medium stack play. Some of these players will leave tables rather than continuing to play. Therefore, we have the term "ratholers".

[OrrLives]

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Aggressive players tend to dislike shortstackers because deep players (100 bb+) prefer to raise with a broad range of hands and have the freedom to play the flop, turn, and river a variety of ways. Shortstackers will counteract these players by reraising KKxx and AAxx mostly and try to deny deeper players the ability to play a wide range on hands past the flop. Shortstackers do cost themselves money in the long run because even if they double up in a hand, they have missed out on profit because they were not 100 bb deep. Additionally, some shortstackers are unable to transition to medium stack play. Some of these players will leave tables rather than continuing to play. Therefore, we have the term "ratholers".

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First of all, my original post had nothing to do with the 'ethics' of hit-and-running, but rather what is a reasonable bankroll for such a strategy. I could care less of the 'ethics' of this strategy.

I understand that 'ratholing' is frustrating to 'proper' players who buy-in for the max (100BB), but this is a legit strategy. I hear players like Ribbo (in his videos) laughing at players for having ~30BB at a table, but he is completely missing the point. Short-stacking is an almost 100% unexploitable strategy (if done properly) that will allow players to build up a bankroll at small risk. Of course, many short-stackers have no idea how to properly use short-stack strategy. Personally, it has allowed me to move up limits MUCH faster than I would have otherwise.

If one plans to move up limits and become a 'great' player, it is crucial that he develops good deep-stack skills. But to say short-stacking threads should result in an insta-ban is completely laughable... it is embarrassing actually.

[chucky]

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Aggressive players tend to dislike shortstackers because deep players (100 bb+) prefer to raise with a broad range of hands and have the freedom to play the flop, turn, and river a variety of ways. Shortstackers will counteract these players by reraising KKxx and AAxx mostly and try to deny deeper players the ability to play a wide range on hands past the flop. Shortstackers do cost themselves money in the long run because even if they double up in a hand, they have missed out on profit because they were not 100 bb deep. Additionally, some shortstackers are unable to transition to medium stack play. Some of these players will leave tables rather than continuing to play. Therefore, we have the term "ratholers".

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First of all, my original post had nothing to do with the 'ethics' of hit-and-running, but rather what is a reasonable bankroll for such a strategy. I could care less of the 'ethics' of this strategy.

I understand that 'ratholing' is frustrating to 'proper' players who buy-in for the max (100BB), but this is a legit strategy. I hear players like Ribbo (in his videos) laughing at players for having ~30BB at a table, but he is completely missing the point. Short-stacking is an almost 100% unexploitable strategy (if done properly) that will allow players to build up a bankroll at small risk. Of course, many short-stackers have no idea how to properly use short-stack strategy. Personally, it has allowed me to move up limits MUCH faster than I would have otherwise.

If one plans to move up limits and become a 'great' player, it is crucial that he develops good deep-stack skills. But to say short-stacking threads should result in an insta-ban is completely laughable... it is embarrassing actually.

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Um please read my post again. "Ratholing" as I used it was the hit and run strategy where someone plays very shortstack and then leaves if they win their coin flip. I agree that it is very tough to defend against the very shortstack strategy, but in truth deepstackers really dont need to. Once a shortstacker gets to 60 bb or higher, they will lose money if they can not adapt. Additionally at 60 bb or even 80bb, the range of hands that can be played preflop is still hampered by the fact that play beyond the flop is very limited.

My suggestion to you is to take shots at higher levels, rather than shortstack at a level you don't have enough buyins at which to compete.

[OrrLives]

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Aggressive players tend to dislike shortstackers because deep players (100 bb+) prefer to raise with a broad range of hands and have the freedom to play the flop, turn, and river a variety of ways. Shortstackers will counteract these players by reraising KKxx and AAxx mostly and try to deny deeper players the ability to play a wide range on hands past the flop. Shortstackers do cost themselves money in the long run because even if they double up in a hand, they have missed out on profit because they were not 100 bb deep. Additionally, some shortstackers are unable to transition to medium stack play. Some of these players will leave tables rather than continuing to play. Therefore, we have the term "ratholers".

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, my original post had nothing to do with the 'ethics' of hit-and-running, but rather what is a reasonable bankroll for such a strategy. I could care less of the 'ethics' of this strategy.

I understand that 'ratholing' is frustrating to 'proper' players who buy-in for the max (100BB), but this is a legit strategy. I hear players like Ribbo (in his videos) laughing at players for having ~30BB at a table, but he is completely missing the point. Short-stacking is an almost 100% unexploitable strategy (if done properly) that will allow players to build up a bankroll at small risk. Of course, many short-stackers have no idea how to properly use short-stack strategy. Personally, it has allowed me to move up limits MUCH faster than I would have otherwise.

If one plans to move up limits and become a 'great' player, it is crucial that he develops good deep-stack skills. But to say short-stacking threads should result in an insta-ban is completely laughable... it is embarrassing actually.

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Um please read my post again. "Ratholing" as I used it was the hit and run strategy where someone plays very shortstack and then leaves if they win their coin flip. I agree that it is very tough to defend against the very shortstack strategy, but in truth deepstackers really dont need to. Once a shortstacker gets to 60 bb or higher, they will lose money if they can not adapt. Additionally at 60 bb or even 80bb, the range of hands that can be played preflop is still hampered by the fact that play beyond the flop is very limited.

My suggestion to you is to take shots at higher levels, rather than shortstack at a level you don't have enough buyins at which to compete.

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I thought we were equating ratholing with shortstacking because shortstackers will usually hit and run. We are talking about the same thing.

I usually play 6-max anyways, so I am not planning on short-stacking much. As I said in an earlier post, it is very difficult to short-stack successfully at 6-max due to the blind pressure.

Shortstacking at full-ring is also less fun for me because I don't get to see many flops.

One aspect of short-stacking that I think is overlooked is that it allows a player to get used to bigger pot sizes. Moving up from 25PLO and 50PLO was a big step for me... suddenly everything was doubled. Short-stacking a little while at full-ring PLO100 and PLO200 helped me get used to bigger pot sizes while putting little at risk. It also helped me get used to losing larger pots, which helps prevent going on tilt when I lose a "big" pot at 50PLO.

[Troll_Inc]

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Aggressive players tend to dislike shortstackers because deep players (100 bb+) prefer to raise with a broad range of hands and have the freedom to play the flop, turn, and river a variety of ways. Shortstackers will counteract these players by reraising KKxx and AAxx mostly and try to deny deeper players the ability to play a wide range on hands past the flop. Shortstackers do cost themselves money in the long run because even if they double up in a hand, they have missed out on profit because they were not 100 bb deep. Additionally, some shortstackers are unable to transition to medium stack play. Some of these players will leave tables rather than continuing to play. Therefore, we have the term "ratholers".

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, my original post had nothing to do with the 'ethics' of hit-and-running, but rather what is a reasonable bankroll for such a strategy. I could care less of the 'ethics' of this strategy.

I understand that 'ratholing' is frustrating to 'proper' players who buy-in for the max (100BB), but this is a legit strategy. I hear players like Ribbo (in his videos) laughing at players for having ~30BB at a table, but he is completely missing the point. Short-stacking is an almost 100% unexploitable strategy (if done properly) that will allow players to build up a bankroll at small risk. Of course, many short-stackers have no idea how to properly use short-stack strategy. Personally, it has allowed me to move up limits MUCH faster than I would have otherwise.

If one plans to move up limits and become a 'great' player, it is crucial that he develops good deep-stack skills. But to say short-stacking threads should result in an insta-ban is completely laughable... it is embarrassing actually.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um please read my post again. "Ratholing" as I used it was the hit and run strategy where someone plays very shortstack and then leaves if they win their coin flip. I agree that it is very tough to defend against the very shortstack strategy, but in truth deepstackers really dont need to. Once a shortstacker gets to 60 bb or higher, they will lose money if they can not adapt. Additionally at 60 bb or even 80bb, the range of hands that can be played preflop is still hampered by the fact that play beyond the flop is very limited.

My suggestion to you is to take shots at higher levels, rather than shortstack at a level you don't have enough buyins at which to compete.

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I thought we were equating ratholing with shortstacking because shortstackers will usually hit and run. We are talking about the same thing.

I usually play 6-max anyways, so I am not planning on short-stacking much. As I said in an earlier post, it is very difficult to short-stack successfully at 6-max due to the blind pressure.

Shortstacking at full-ring is also less fun for me because I don't get to see many flops.

One aspect of short-stacking that I think is overlooked is that it allows a player to get used to bigger pot sizes. Moving up from 25PLO and 50PLO was a big step for me... suddenly everything was doubled. Short-stacking a little while at full-ring PLO100 and PLO200 helped me get used to bigger pot sizes while putting little at risk. It also helped me get used to losing larger pots, which helps prevent going on tilt when I lose a "big" pot at 50PLO.

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This forum is unaccustomed to someone using so many words and saying so little.

[Flip-Flop]

Short stacking hit&run is pretty much an online phenomena because you are not going to last long as a regular doing it live.

It`s the hit&run part of the strategy that annoys people I guess.
I don`t think anyone has a problem with a good short-stacker that is not afraid to stay and play some poker after he doubles up.
Actually, I don`t mind the online hit&runners because I know what to expect of them and I know how to defend.
But I do look for a table full of deep stacks before I sit down, that`s a given.