Get your n00b out, uNL--Volume 2

Monster207 · #1 10-24-2007, 04:08 PM

Just wanted to say this is an awesome idea and thanks.

This I suppose is a player dependent question but for you at how many tables can you play and still 'learn' before you start just playing like a bot? which is more profitable?
Your learning curve should still be quite high in the beginning. playing and evaluating your play as well as talking to those better than you and coaching sessions are all ways you can help yourself improve. I would say that it drops off a bit once you start playing more and getting into the swing of things.

Sometimes i like to 2 table and really think about my actions and the actions of others. I think its a good way to help yourself.

i think that playing more tables is typically more profitable- if you can maintain your A game while playing many tables, why not? at some point you might want to try new things by going down to lower limits/trying new strategies, but playing more tables seems much more profitable. 

I play 6 tables usually, and I find it quite comfortable. When I move to a new level I play just one, then two, then four, then six. I think that multi-tabling is HUGELY important because so much of micro stakes play is about volume of hands, that is, once you have sorted out your game. IMO you should be playing as many tables as you feel capable of - I'd play nine but its too much for me.

Ranma4703 · #2 10-24-2007, 04:17 PM

Which of these videos do you recommend I start with? Besides iStrong?
http://www.roulettenburg.com/poker/videos.html
Against a loose player who likes to bluff, what do you do after betting the flop with a marginal hand (2nd pair, TPWK, pair lower then 2nd) on the turn? What if he isn't a bluffer, but will bet after the pfr checks the turn a good % of the time? Marginal hands out of position are my very worst hands (true for pretty much everyone I assume).

How much of a station does someone have to be for you to call a pot sized bet with a naked flush draw out of position, 100bb stacks? Do you coldcall raises in position from tight players with Axs? What about loose players?

Just trying to nail down some situations that have been giving me trouble, thanks!

These questions are very hard to answer.

Videos, can't comment on since I haven't seen many of them.

I typically check the turn against a loose player with a marginal showdown hand to induce a bluff on the river and exercise some pot control. If we are OOP with a decent showdown hand, I tend to c/c to a looser player and check the river. So, for an example:

you open TT, he calls.
Flop J23r, you bet, he calls.
Turn 2, you check, he bets, you...?
i would call here most times given some opponents. against others you can fold, but against many, i c/c and check the river. our hand is good alot and he can be floating/betting with alot of stuff here.

your terminology is all wrong. a player generally is not a 'station' if he is the one who bets. the flush draw question is difficult- stacks, board texture, reads are all vital. i would say that calling a PSB is generally not good though with a lone fd, mainly because you won't be paid when you do hit your flush OOP.

in regards to Axs- sometimes. i wouldnt call a tight UTG open with it but like a looser CO i dont mind calling with Axs. it just depends I guess, like everything.

Monster207 · #3 10-24-2007, 04:26 PM

I was just reading this post by pokey http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...Number=5348855 and I wanted to know what he means when he says "shania". I see it here and there in other posts and I have no idea what he is talking about.

 "shania" is supposed to reward good, proper play with good results. It's just something some 2p2'er made up long time ago that's become part of 2p2 culture.



I was under the impression that shania was about metagame and balance. The notion that if you do a certain thing for value, you need to be doing the exact same thing as a bluff a percentage of the time. I'll see if I can dig up the original thread.

Here: http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/...te_id/1#import

hennnerz · #4 10-24-2007, 04:45 PM

In an average 1000 hand session how many "plays" should I be making roughly? eg. 3bet flop light vs over-agro villain type plays.

Also what is the consensus on bankroll management with respect to multitabling? Standard bankroll is 20buyins, how many for 4, 8, 12 and 15 tabling?

As mods, I have always wondered how many hands you have logged lifetime?

You can get by with making 0 "plays" if you want. But, I would say some one shot well timed bluffs and some 3bet lights are good for you. But you would have to do it well. Which just comes with playing over time. Maybe 5-10 per 1000. And as far as elaborate multi street bluffs go, about 1 per 1000000000000000 hands, heh.

Bankroll is really not effected by multitabling.

We've logged varying amount of hands at varying limits. But, we're chosen not for our poker playing abilities. More that we were decent posters who contributed to the forums at a time when a mod was needed.

hennnerz · #5 10-25-2007, 07:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Also what is the consensus on bankroll management with respect to multitabling? Standard bankroll is 20buyins, how many for 4, 8, 12 and 15 tabling?
Bankroll is really not effected by multitabling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anymore mod opinions on this please?

If you are playing the same game, it doesnt matter, its just that what was going to happen will happen faster. That means if you are a losing player you will lose faster, and if you are a winning player you will win faster. Variance will just happen over a shorter period of time. So what that means is that your BR requirements are the same whether you are 1 tabling or 15 tabling.

Of course if you have a 20bi roll and you have 15 of those bi in play at any time, if you have a 6 bi session downswing then you are going to have to close some tables, so in that respect you need to have some bi in reserve. But in terms of raw variance if you think that you need more money to play more tables then it is most likely that you play worse when 15 tabling than you do when 6 tabling so you should cut down on some tables.

corsakh · #6 10-25-2007, 08:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Also what is the consensus on bankroll management with respect to multitabling? Standard bankroll is 20buyins, how many for 4, 8, 12 and 15 tabling?

[/ QUOTE ]

Deviation is a subject to a square root rule. It also depends on your winrate.

Consensus is you need 20BI for a full concentration play. I'd say its a comfortable number for someone playing 5ptbb/100 hands 1 or 2 tabling.

If you want to play 4 tables, a safe estimate would be to take sq root of 4, which is 2, and multiply it by 20 = 40BI.

If your WR is bigger, say `10ptbb, you can get away with 30bi for 4 tables.

Another example. You want to play 8 tables at 5ptbb.
sqrt 8 = 2.8, 2.8 x 20 = 55bi

8 tables at 10ptbb about 40bi from the top of my head.

For exact numbers search google for risk of ruin calculator and play with the numbers. You can find you deviation numbers in poker tracker.

^^^^^ This is all blah blah blah.

Bankroll doesn't need to be larger based on the number of tables you play. 20 BI is the old standard. (And that was assuming you were 4-tabling at the least.) Hardly anyone in SSNL keeps 20BI as a roll anymore. It's what you are comfortable with. I keep 40+ BI in my roll for NL200. Alot of SSNL'ers keep 30-70 BI in their roll.

If you play 10k hands, you play 10k hands. It doesn't matter if you get there 2 tabling over a weeks time. Or 8 tabling 2 days. It's still 10k hands.

EDIT: Granted, I am talking about a player who has found the optimum number of tables that he can play that maximizes his winrate. If you add tables to that number, your winrate is going to go down and your Risk of Ruin is going to go up so you would need a bigger bankroll. But, that's only because you are playing sub-optimally.

doppelganger · #7 10-25-2007, 01:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I was just reading this post by pokey http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...Number=5348855 and I wanted to know what he means when he says "shania". I see it here and there in other posts and I have no idea what he is talking about.

 "shania" is supposed to reward good, proper play with good results. It's just something some 2p2'er made up long time ago that's become part of 2p2 culture.



[/ QUOTE ]

Just to add a little more 2+2 history to the shania question, there was a famous thread that's posted in the SNL sticky that introduces the concept of shania:

http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/...te_id/1#import

Shania is basically the same thing as "metagame" but sounds cooler and more "eastern philosophy-ish" when you give it a cool name. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

 Ya, my definition of shania sucks and is sorta inaccurate. check out the link.

iRockPoker03 · #8 10-25-2007, 02:13 AM

what does the u in unl mean

 µ <----it's really one of those. Stands for micro. Linky

crovax4444 · #9 10-25-2007, 04:56 AM

10NL, We have a pocket pair (22-88) vs a short stack (40bb) He bets 2bb, do we call this crappy bet or raise? 3 situations:

 Your question isnt really clear. Do you mean preflop? Do you mean on the flop? What is the flop texture? What do you know about how the opponet plays? There are lots of details we need to know to answer this question properly. 

1) HU
2) Another player after us left to act
3) Another player before us who already called min-bet
Sub-question: lets say in situation 2 and 3, the players mentioned are short or full, does it change the situation?

What about against a full stack? (same question as #1, but against 100BB)

Crovax

 Against full stacks, sure, go ahead and call with your small pp's. Against a 40bb stack, if you are in position it's probably OK to call the 2 bb's and it'll be marginally profitable long term, but not really that profitable. If you are in the SB, you can fold it if the shortie is the only player involved. In the BB, probably call if others are involved too.

ama0330 · #10 10-25-2007, 05:13 AM

Bump