San Diego in an AC world - Page 9

Borodog · #81 10-23-2007, 04:35 PM

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Well then who are you planning on suing?

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The current 'owners'. ldo

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You mean the French government?

Lol.

DVaut1 · #82 10-23-2007, 04:37 PM

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As much as it might shock you, assigning "rightful ownership" over property that was stolen well over a century ago from people who are long dead by people who are long dead is not some transparently obvious task. There is no objective way to do this

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Okay.

So then what the [censored] is pvn talking about when he says this "society" is built on "ill-gotten gains". My response is: Okay? So are lots of people's houses. Are we to take action, or is it just noted for posterity, or what?

Felz · #83 10-23-2007, 04:38 PM

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"Political market" is an oxymoron. The market provides multiple options all at once while the political realm forces everyone to accept a single option.

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This is obviously bullsh*t a) in a democracy and b) even more so for mobile people.

DVaut1 · #84 10-23-2007, 04:42 PM

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Well then who are you planning on suing?

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The current 'owners'. ldo

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You mean the French government?

Lol.

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Yeah, I mean, I don't want you to get bogged down in who owns the art; if the museum was private, my point isn't any different: it's not unprecedented for people, even generations later, to sue the current possessors of stolen goods for their rightful return. I was merely answering pvn's question, which again, was tangential to *my* point, which was: should we really care if society was "built" off of "ill gotten" gains? I'm not even conceding it's true, but even if it is, what are the implications? Why even note it?

Felz · #85 10-23-2007, 04:42 PM

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Bingo. As someone pointed out, the last vestiges of "political market" in the United States were destroyed by Lincoln 140 years ago.

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The US political system is irrelevant to me personally and to a purely theoratical discourse on this subject and most importantly to the arguments I brought forward earlier.

BCPVP · #86 10-23-2007, 04:54 PM

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"Political market" is an oxymoron. The market provides multiple options all at once while the political realm forces everyone to accept a single option.

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This is obviously bullsh*t a) in a democracy and b) even more so for mobile people.

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It is absolutely true in a democracy! Winner-take-all ringing any bells? There's no winner-takes-all in the market.

pvn · #87 10-23-2007, 04:57 PM

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Before the Europeans came over here, I don't think the Native Americans even had a concept of ownership of land, so wouldn't it be hard for their ancestors to make a claim today based on that?

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Whoa. Just being the descendant of someone who was wronged doesn't mean you automatically have a claim to damages suffered by your ancestor.

Let's assume I'm sitting on land that was "stolen" from some natives 200 or so years ago.

Some guy knocks on my door. "Excuse me, I believe this is my property."

Please explain how this particular person is going to demonstrate this claim to this particular acre of land.

At what point has the property been abandoned?

If someone (i.e. the US government) was forcibly preventing him from pursuing and defending his claim, that's certainly a possible cause for *additional* damages against *that* party.

Money2Burn · #88 10-23-2007, 04:58 PM

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Bingo. As someone pointed out, the last vestiges of "political market" in the United States were destroyed by Lincoln 140 years ago.

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The US political system is irrelevant to me personally and to a purely theoratical discourse on this subject and most importantly to the arguments I brought forward earlier.

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Governments actively and forcefully stamp out competition in the "political systems" market. It is not free by any means. Try to go anywhere that is habitable and buy up a large amount of land and announce that you are setting up some other type of political system and anyone is welcome to come join you and see how long it takes for a government to come in and shut you down.

pvn · #89 10-23-2007, 04:58 PM

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So then what the [censored] is pvn talking about when he says this "society" is built on "ill-gotten gains". My response is: Okay? So are lots of people's houses. Are we to take action, or is it just noted for posterity, or what?

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1) Past injustices do not justify continued injustice in the present, or future injustices.

2) if you have damages, stake your claim.

pvn · #90 10-23-2007, 05:03 PM

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"Political market" is an oxymoron. The market provides multiple options all at once while the political realm forces everyone to accept a single option.

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This is obviously bullsh*t a) in a democracy

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Right, this is why Bush is only in the White house 49% of the time, and Kerry is there 49% of the time, and some collection of nobodies spends 2% of the time there.

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and b) even more so for mobile people.

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I have been using the same barber for twenty years. Yesterday he [censored] up my hair for the third time in a row, so I decided to get a new barber. I decided he deserved to know, so I told him. He said "I'm sorry to hear that. Where will you be moving to?" I said "what the [censored] are you talking about?" He calmly explained that everyone has freedom to choose whatever barber they want, that's the advantage of living in a mobile society where you can pick up and move to a different barber's declared monopoly territory."