It's time for the R Word...

[whisker]

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In my mind, the next step regarding location is a shared space with public access (ie, not a home) <SNIP>
And the space would be paid for in cash with no paper trail, and no records on the premises.


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As an honest landlord (i.e. one who has folks fill out a lease agreement and pays taxes on the income generated from my property) I assure you even if you paid me in cash there would be a paper trail.

Maybe you have an "under the table agreement" with someone who owns property? Do you think they are making enough money off you to lie for you when the authorities go and knock on their door and ask who is responsible for the potential illegal activities in the space they own?

[pfapfap]

Heh, thanks all for your blunt responses.

First off, I'm very good friends with a lawyer.

I'm not opening up an underground card den. Yet, anyway. Right now it's a matter of keeping more or less my same game, just trying to find the best way to make it work without opening up the game to higher turnover. My concern is more security than legality.

mxp2004, I don't see how it's complicated. It's a lot simpler than a percentage rake, which is way too cardroom-y for me. The game feels like a big home game, I want to retain that as much as possible. It's a cover charge. And, for some, a processing fee.

I can't just ask for money to cover the night's expenses, because I'm looking beyond that. There is economy in scale. I buy liquor by the case. And expenses fluctuate. Could be a new table one week, chairs the next, replacement cards, lighting fixtures, artwork, pinball machines, movie screen, etc.

SmallFry, I think there's a hell of a lot of value. At a cardroom, you pay $4 a pot and another $1/2 for tip, and alcohol is not included. I'm asking $5 a night cover charge, $5 donation more if you win. If anyone made a stink about it, I wouldn't force the person. But nothing says I have to invite him/her back.

whisker, you're right about that, this is more pipe dream territory. But I live in the Bay Area. There are alternate economies. You'd be surprised what's out there, and how much of it there is.


As I said, my main concern is security. I'm not going to open the game up too much while I'm still renting at a residence shared by others. But I think the way I'm envisioning will be a happy medium... keep the cash games with the same crowd (and trusted friends of same, so slow growth). And the weekly tournament series, also same intimate group. But the monthly things, those we open up for people to invite people from their other games (and 2+2ers). The vig is larger, so with more people, it's a monthly boost to the fund that improves the room as a whole. And we only invite the folks we really like to join us on our other days. We don't even mention it to anybody else. And if it slips, oh well, too bad, this is what they get to play in.

[Small Fry]

Mine was mostly a rhetorical question. But it's one you need to answer to keep the game alive.

I still think a base fee is the way to go. If you are able to keep track of when players come and go, then a time fee becomes more realistic. Or even a combo of the two. Initial cover charge up front, followed by a time charge when they leave. This gets them in the door cheap. Of course it does pose a problem with the guy that loses all his cash so you'll want to install an ATM. I'd extend credit also at .5% interest. Compounded weekly. Excepting credit cards might become problematic initially but I know a guy at Visa who I can put you in touch with... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

ps. hope that lawyer feels the same about you. And that his expertise is in something other than acquisitions and mergers....lol

[mxp2004]

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I can't just ask for money to cover the night's expenses, because I'm looking beyond that. There is economy in scale. I buy liquor by the case. And expenses fluctuate. Could be a new table one week, chairs the next, replacement cards, lighting fixtures, artwork, pinball machines, movie screen, etc.

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This is clearly not a typical home game.

[TrvChBoy]

What about a prvate club with monthly membership fees? Seems like guys have been getting around the laws for years by having this type of setup. This results in no rake, but you still get your expenses covered. And hey, if the guys in your club want to play cards, that's their business.... You are just charging them club dues. Your lawyer buddy might be able to help you here.

Maybe you could call yourselves the "Rabbit Hunting Club of America".

[Small Fry]

[ QUOTE ]
What about a prvate club with monthly membership fees? Seems like guys have been getting around the laws for years by having this type of setup. This results in no rake, but you still get your expenses covered. And hey, if the guys in your club want to play cards, that's their business.... You are just charging them club dues. Your lawyer buddy might be able to help you here.

Maybe you could call yourselves the "Rabbit Hunting Club of America".

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You, my friend, are a genius. Absolutely brilliant

[Slow Play Ray]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What about a prvate club with monthly membership fees? Seems like guys have been getting around the laws for years by having this type of setup. This results in no rake, but you still get your expenses covered. And hey, if the guys in your club want to play cards, that's their business.... You are just charging them club dues. Your lawyer buddy might be able to help you here.

Maybe you could call yourselves the "Rabbit Hunting Club of America".

[/ QUOTE ]

You, my friend, are a genius. Absolutely brilliant

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We have one of these in my area. Some cops are members. Nuff said.

[whisker]

[ QUOTE ]
What about a prvate club with monthly membership fees? Seems like guys have been getting around the laws for years by having this type of setup. This results in no rake, but you still get your expenses covered. And hey, if the guys in your club want to play cards, that's their business.... You are just charging them club dues. Your lawyer buddy might be able to help you here.

Maybe you could call yourselves the "Rabbit Hunting Club of America".

[/ QUOTE ]

Just this weekend I stumbled across something that seems like this in Portland, OR.

http://www.portlandrounders.com/

They claim to be "a membership based semi-private club that is open to the public." Their schedule says they have games every night of the week. I have not checked them out yet, but plan to do so sometime soon. Interesting part of town though. Not the shadiest, but there are many other places I'd like to stumble around after dark with a pocket full of dough (cause of course I'd be a winner [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

And as a side note ... any other folks in the Portland area? I've heard rumors of some card clubs in the area, anybody know of any? Driving two hours to the coast for Live NL isn't the most feasible thing to do any given night.

[pfapfap]

That's probably a good idea if I ever move up to buying a building and setting up nightly games. As I was talking about where to take our game with a lawyer who plays in it, he was interested in helping me set up a corporation to shield myself a bit. If it ever moves to that level, I'll certainly be talking ahead of time with many people to minimize my risk.

But for now, really, I was more interested if in you'd play in the game with the rates I proposed. Does it seem fair?

[n.s.]

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But for now, really, I was more interested if in you'd play in the game with the rates I proposed. Does it seem fair?

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It's hard to imagine that anyone would object to those rates, especially if you are buying booze. I mean, most players are going to burn more than $2 or $5 worth of gas getting to game.

As far as the legality is concern, make it a "suggested donation" and make it technically optional - I would imagine that virtually everyone you would trust to invite to this game are cool enough that that they wouldn't be a douchebag over a lousy $5. A healthy dose of social pressure should be enough enforcement.