The connection between a spiritual experience and a certain religion

[JussiUt]

All of our experiences are subjective in a way. We can't shake "the chains" that tie us to our body and mind. Therefore anything that is claimed to be the truth should be based as much as possible on evidence and objective reasoning.

Subjective experiences should not give any insight into the 'real world' if that subjective experience cannot be backed up by empirical evidence. There have been thousands of religions in the world - isn't it remarkable to think that the religion you believe in and you have subjectively experienced is the universally correct one? Doesn't it make more sense if all the religions are humans' attempts to grasp the unknowable and understand the mystery, understand God if you want to put it that way?

There's something egoistical in the way of thinking that "what I subjectively experience" is objectively true. Of course true objectivity could be impossible to reach but that's why we have the need for evidence. People have subjective experiences all the time - one is a schizophrenic for example. While I'm not making a comparison between a mental illness and a religious belief it's clear that we have our own realities where we live in.

I'm not directing this to anyone specifically. I can't help but wonder what makes people think that "I have experienced the true God through MY senses and that MY subjective experience holds any universal truths." I do not deny for a second that people really sincerely believe they've had a contact with the supernatural. What I feel is illogical and a bit egoistical (though probably quite natural for us humans) to suppose that my extraordinary views about the cosmos and about life is more accurate than the next person's views. Even though YOU feel that it is correct doesn't mean that it's correct.

You can say that you saw a tree fall down. That's not a particularly extraordinary statement. You probably did see a tree fall down. There's not a lot of reason to suppose that you just had an illusion or something that the tree fall down. But when we come into the territory where people claim to hold transcendental, universal and supernatural truths about the world then we must be skeptics. Why? Because as history has shown us, there have been hundreds if not thousands of religions. What makes this one particularly more correct? Also because we know how the mind works, how psychologically we can experience same things very differently.

Long rambling short, I do find it remarkable that people can claim something so grand and extraordinary to be universally true when its source is YOU and YOUR experiences.

[godBoy]

good post.

So be skeptical.
Some of the greatest religious thinkers were.

- There comes a point when you have to 'throw in your lot' with a religion, there's just too many coincidences to keep doubting..

[goodgrief]

I don't find it remarkable. I just find it pathetic. These people who boast most about their relationship with God and their intuitive knowledge of the truth are often so into their own egos that "if I think it, if I experience it, it happened dammit!" The invisible God they claim to worship is their own infallibility, and then they wonder why they look ridiculous to the rest of us. Skeptical people seem to be, on average, more intelligent than the true believers, or at least they are more willing to make use of what intelligence they have to question even themselves. I don't consider this a coincidence. I don't think the voice in my head is the voice of God, no matter how many bells and whistles and fireworks the voice may light up. The true believer does, and the more shiny fireworks the more he believes. Or as Woody Allen once said, "I noticed that when I was talking to God, I was talking to myself." The true believer never catches on. Seems to work the same way whether the subjective experience involves an encounter with Jesus or the Grays or radio signals from the CIA. As a culture, we humor sick people who get signals from Jesus and medicate those who get signals from the CIA. Too bad for those who get their signals from Jesus and thus have a much lesser chance of ever hitting bottom and getting healed. Too bad for our society which is seriously harmed by the evil that true believers such as Falwell do.




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Long rambling short, I do find it remarkable that people can claim something so grand and extraordinary to be universally true when its source is YOU and YOUR experiences.

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[godBoy]

For God's sake use paragraphs! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

My goodness that's a load a crap you've just posted.. you can call it all ego-inflation and evil.. but it just doesn't gel with my... erhh 'objective experience' - you're decent enough to allow credibility to that, right?

I also love how many times I read this one spouted from atheists so hastily.
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Skeptical people seem to be, on average, more intelligent than the true believers

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This isn't ego-stroking at all, it's just observed fact [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

How the militant atheist gets himself/herself all caught up in a bother..

[JussiUt]

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good post.

So be skeptical.
Some of the greatest religious thinkers were.

- There comes a point when you have to 'throw in your lot' with a religion, there's just too many coincidences to keep doubting..

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Thanks.

I continue to be skeptical. It's a reasonable attitude to have towards most things that do not have sufficient evidence.

I disagree that there comes a point where people need to become religious but that shouldn't be a suprise that we differ whether there is a God or not or whether there is a need to be religious. Thanks for the good replies.

And what comes to goodgrief, although he said it in a bit harsh way he's actually quite close to the point I was making about subjective experiences. I don't really care about the correlation of religiousness and intelligence. There are smart people who are religious so casting everyone as dumb or egoistical isn't quite right.

There seem to be more liberal theists, agnostics and atheists amongst scientists and intellectuals percentage wise than amongst general population but that shouldn't suprise us. In most parts of the world being an atheist requires a lot of thinking and individual thought because of the religious pressure from the society so those who are not interested in thinking about these things are usually bound to be religious at least in some way. And those who are curious usually have a higher chance of becoming part of "the intelligentsia". I repeat however that being religious doesn't mean that you have to be dumb.

[Taraz]

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My example was saying that various people are trying to reach the same God.

But, there are Religions that aren't pointing to this God.

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Couldn't it be that they just misunderstand God? They are trying to point to this God, but they get it wrong slightly? Even polytheistic religions. Maybe they are mistaken in separating all of God's attributes into separate deities.

I think all religious people are searching for spiritual truth. They follow whatever resonates with them and is backed up by their experience (spiritual and non-spiritual).

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Religions describe the character of God differently.
I believe the bible describes God accurately.

So other religions describe God innacurately, which means they're not pointing to the same God as Christianity.

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Maybe it's just semantics, but I don't see that as pointing to a different God. I see it as trying to point to the same God, but being off by a couple degrees.

[Taraz]

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Thanks for your response.

[/ QUOTE ]You're welcome, just be sure to take what I say with a grain of salt..
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This kind of universalization of ones subjective view is stunning.

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While this is correct, I feel it's a little mis-leading..

It's clear to me that people believe to be true, what they believe to be true.. Is that really all that stunning?
I believe my subjective experience gives me insight into the 'real world'
Is your point that subjective experiences should not give any insight into the 'real world'?

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I think that all I would ask (and probably what JussiUt would ask) is something that Jesus himself taught: humility.

I think it's important that theists realize that they could very easily be mistaken and that somebody else may have it right. If you operate on the assumption that you may have it wrong (or that you probably have it wrong) you will be more open-minded in your search and you'll probably learn a whole lot more about what you are searching for.

[godBoy]

I disagree, This isn't what humility is about at all.
Humility is not admitting to yourself that you know next to nothing, and Jesus spoke more of Faith.

I am open minded, though I cannot deny what I have seen or reduce it's value or importance.

[Taraz]

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I disagree, This isn't what humility is about at all.
Humility is not admitting to yourself that you know next to nothing, and Jesus spoke more of Faith.

I am open minded, though I cannot deny what I have seen or reduce it's value or importance.

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I'm not saying that you should admit that you know next to nothing. There is no problem with believing that Christianity is the best religion out there.

But I think you should admit that you might be wrong and that someone else might have it right. Don't you think that you would learn more about God, Christianity, and other religions if you operate from that assumption? Instead of looking for all that is right in the Bible and all that is wrong with other religions, why not look at what is right in other religions and potentially wrong in the Bible?

Basically I'm advocating that we all be wary of the confirmation bias. Don't simply look for things that prove your point. Look for things that disprove your point. I think it's an important exercise for anyone of faith to really try to get into the mind of someone who disagrees with you instead of simply looking for ways to dismiss their claims.

I'm not necessarily saying that you don't already do these things, I'm speaking in more general terms if that's not clear.

[godBoy]

sure thing.