2/4, kaboom! the check3bet heavy artillery!?

[MrWookie]

You think he raises AK, AQ, and KQ 100% of the time here? I think that's too much. I'd estimate your equity is in the 30-40% range when HU, but we do have the other guy to think about, too. I'm inclined to call here, but I think the 3bet is a mistake.

[bung]

I think TAG raises AJ (tptk) and KQs and overpairs 100% of the time here...

The 3-bet could be a mistake, but not as often as most are advocating. Tag's btn raise can be a legitimate hand, OR a combination of draw(s) (ex. bdfd, gsd + OC = 8 outs) being played aggressively in a fairly large flop pot for 1) a free card, 2) an attempt to get it HU with a weaker player 3) buy outs?

The important thing I think is that TAG's pf and flop raise allows us to narrow down his range significantly. I think there's a decent chance that OP is ahead here, and his equity might be higher than the 30-40% you're giving him.

Having said that, I think a call is the best play here. The field is already faced with 2 cold, 3-betting won't get them out any more than 2 would. If the turn is a safe card, I can b/f.

[Befolder]

Grunch.

Well based on your read of him being a solid TAG, a solid TAG is far more likely to iso raise pf vs. one player. He's not iso'ing on this hand.

Another thing a sold TAG does not do is raise w/o having some kind of hand on the flop vs. 4 other players. He's got no fold equity.

I think we're behind most often to a higher PP or better J here, so it's a fold first for me on this board, call second. I think the 3 bet is spew in this particular hand though your general read on him iso'ing other times is probably spot on.

I've certainly done the same thing many times, but I believe I've been on the bad end of it most times.

[bung]

[ QUOTE ]
He's got no fold equity

[/ QUOTE ]

He's facing 3 out of 5 players with 2 cold, plus another player with an extra bet. I think that's decent fold equity.

[Befolder]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He's got no fold equity

[/ QUOTE ]

He's facing 3 out of 5 players with 2 cold, plus another player with an extra bet. I think that's decent fold equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! I think I edited the wrong post to add that.

[Man of Means]

I don't like folding a solid top pair in this spot - hey the pfr raised a mediocre looking flop in a large pot when CO donked out; that's what a pfr often does.

Generally you c/r an aggressive button here to face the field with two cold. "The field" is now two players who probably have nothing and they will face 2 bets anyway if you coldcall. (But the occasional idiot gutshot 87o is getting a fairly good price to cc 2, not 3)

While CO could be doing a "test the waters" bet with middle pair (do we have a read?) he is *probably* going to see the turn whether you 3b or not.

It feels like Coldcall ~= 3bet in terms of ev. Then the arguments in favor of 3b are the hand becomes somewhat easier to play and if you show down, opponents seeing your aggression with TP3K may give more action in the future or alternately think you're ntbfw. regards.

[Point Blank]

if CO is a retard and BTN knows CO is a retard and will raise semi-light in this spot (say with KQ, oc+gs vs moron) then maybe I might stay in the pot) ... depends on how aggressive he is

but more often than not BTN's raise here indicates you are beat

[DrModern]

I usually fold pre, to be totally honest.

On the flop, the only reason to 3-bet is, as MoM suggested, to protect your hand from weak draws. I think the small chance of them having one, and the small equity those draws have anyway is not worth the likelihood of a) voluntarily putting in more bets when behind or b) exposing yourself to a cap when you're boned (obviously more weight on a). Plus, they might just go ahead and dump to two bets.

My main point is I think you're overestimating the ranges here, Babar, based on your iso-raising read on the guy. If he's solid, he'll have a fairly legitimate hand here most of the time. It's possible, though, that TPdecentK is still good, though and I'd make the cold-call.

One point for discussion, though:

I think donking the flop could actually be a pretty good move here. Does anyone agree?

[bbbushu]

where does HEPFAP or SSHE say to fold this one preflop?

especially given the table of limpers.

[Niediam]

[ QUOTE ]
where does HEPFAP or SSHE say to fold this one preflop?

especially given the table of limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]

HEPFAP p. 43
SSH p. 83

The only decent book that I can think of that advocates playing this type of hand is ITH. WLLH and MLH say to fold. And I want to say that WTO says to fold to but I don't own the book and it's been a while since I have read it.