First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks - Page 3

beenben · #1 12-25-2005, 04:04 AM

I'm probably not good enough to fold any over pair here. I probably call in real life, but this board is about 20/20 hindsight.

My initial reaction was to call; but after thinking through the villians' line- that if he had TPTK or an overpair, with the flush draw on board, and a large stack, and him messing with the other big stack, he's got to have a 9 or at least one 2.

He could be stealing on the first hand of the FT; it's folded around to him, people usually play tight right away at the FT until they see who's who and what's what. He might have A2s or even 23o if he's on a steal, since it's easier to lay down a steal with fecal matter. Maybe he wants to be seen as the aggressor at the FT. Maybe that's why he's all in here- he's saying don't F with me everyone or I'll put you all in and make you make a decision for all your chips- but I doubt that he'd do that with the other big stack.

But if he had a big pair or a set, and he hit the flop which contains two flush cards, he's going to want to take down the pot now instead of letting another flush card come. He might also want to take the pot down now with Ad Kd - he's putting you on an overpair or smaller ace and doesn't want to have to hit his flush or his overcards.

bugstud · #2 12-25-2005, 10:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A couple of questions for those advocating a call:

I understand that this looks a lot like a draw, but don't you find it unusual that the villain is playing an unmade hand this fast vs. an unkown player that can bust him when the third place stack is so much shorter?

Given the fact that I should be able to abuse the smaller stacks to my left even if I fold, what kind of edge do I need to call here? What would be a good weighted hand range to use to calculate my equity?

[/ QUOTE ]

well, I also liked your position because you have a shot to bust this guy if he's speeding. IMO his hand range, based on what I would do this with, is mostly overs. AK/AQ/KQ, all big diamond draws. If this guy is really good, though, with AA/KK/99/any duece, though...he probably checks the flop too. If he had you beat I really like his line.

that said I probably would have clicked call before even thinking it through.

BPA234 · #3 12-25-2005, 10:03 AM

IMO, given the stack sizes of you and villain relative to remaining players, there is an argument for a pre-flop fold. Having said that, I would call pre-flop for the obv set value. Against this player, I check the flop. For the reason that I do not want to make a decision for all my chips with 10/10. THe texture of the flop is very good for your hand and a brick turn would improve your holdings and reduce the likelihood that you see major action on 4th. If you do, you can decide where you are then.

Further, if you are up against AK/KQ (not suited diamonds), you are way ahead, and against AKd with brick turns and rivers you can get full value here.

FWIW, I play QQ/KK/AA exactly the way you see the villain's action. I might also play AKd this way. I may just call with a set. All depends on my read on you.

I believe you are facing a very strong hand here. At minimum, a flush draw with over cards has you 51.3/48.7. You are a 10/90 dog to every likely holding. The only hand you are heavy favorite to is an underpair. I very rarely see a good player, with a major chip advantage at a full final table, risk all his chips against the other large stack unless he has the goods.

I would fold to his allin.

chok1 · #4 12-25-2005, 10:42 AM

why not reraise before flop? See where you are at. I think you played the tens to weak.

NYCNative · #5 12-25-2005, 10:51 AM

Imagine how much easier this hand would have been to play had your postflop bet had been a preflop reraise...

nath · #6 12-25-2005, 12:43 PM

I like a reraise to about 125k preflop, if you think you can take it down.
I even like a check behind on the flop, for this exact situation. Sure you're not happy if an overcard comes on the turn but it's better than being faced with a tough decision for so much of your stack when you're in good shape.
I tend to play much more passively when I'm against another big stack late. I'd rather keep the pot small.

betgo · #7 12-25-2005, 02:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like a reraise to about 125k preflop, if you think you can take it down.
I even like a check behind on the flop, for this exact situation. Sure you're not happy if an overcard comes on the turn but it's better than being faced with a tough decision for so much of your stack when you're in good shape.
I tend to play much more passively when I'm against another big stack late. I'd rather keep the pot small.

[/ QUOTE ]

In this situation, I would not want a big pot with the other big stack, since I think doubling up less than doubles $EV.

If there were 40 players left, I would welcome that kind of confrontation, as I would be looking to double up and make a huge stack to win the tournament.

Playing passively does not necessarily keep the pot small, particularly when the blinds are as large as they are at this point.

nath · #8 12-25-2005, 06:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Playing passively does not necessarily keep the pot small, particularly when the blinds are as large as they are at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps not, but checking behind will get you that much closer to the end of the hand, it does help control pot size, and it also ensures you can't be check-raised all in and put to the decision that hero now finds himself having to make.

betgo · #9 12-26-2005, 08:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like a reraise to about 125k preflop, if you think you can take it down.
I even like a check behind on the flop, for this exact situation. Sure you're not happy if an overcard comes on the turn but it's better than being faced with a tough decision for so much of your stack when you're in good shape.
I tend to play much more passively when I'm against another big stack late. I'd rather keep the pot small.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain raised to 48K and you have about 480K. I reraise to 96K. This represents a big pair and maintains the advantage of position if villain calls. This is going to be very hard for villain to play unless he hits the flop hard. If villain puts in a 3rd raise, it is an easy fold.

If you reraise to 125K, you are pot commiting yourself. You have a difficult decision if villain pushes, as he might have 99 or AQ-AK and you are getting good pot odds. If villain calls, you pretty much have to put the rest in on the flop whatever hits. Since, villain is first to act, he may push any flop, as he is pot committed, leaving you with a difficult decision.

I think a minireraise is best, but a push is better than raising to 125K. When you push, you leave all the difficult decsions to your opponent. Problem is AK and JJ-AA will call. However, villain is probably not raising from CO with big stack with one of those hands.

I think this is like the 10xBB rule for initial raises. Don't make a raise that pot commits you without pushing.

betgo · #10 12-26-2005, 09:26 PM

To discuss the preflop part, I don't think the flat call is terrible. The problem is the stack sizes. If the money was shallower, you could reraise allin. If it was deeper, you could make a standard reraise.

As it is, I think a minireraise is the best reraise, since it allows you to fold to a 3rd raise and represents AA with position.