Top mistakes by 2+2ers in low-stake SNGs

[notTHATjonmayer]

This post is just a long-winded excuse for being results-oriented or weak-tight. Maybe both.

Saying it's important to think about what ranges actually are is a good point, but i'm not sure it was ever really said in OP.

Either way, the main point that a good 16 player can pass up edges has been brought up many times. The thing that makes a good 16 player, though, is NOT passing up edges. It's finding as many as possible and taking all of them. It's true that with some variance will go up, but if a play is clearly right, as is often the case in the examples you gave, you can't not take it because it's not "+EV enough"

[mmorpg]

[ QUOTE ]
This post is just a long-winded excuse for being results-oriented or weak-tight. Maybe both.

Saying it's important to think about what ranges actually are is a good point, but i'm not sure it was ever really said in OP.

Either way, the main point that a good 16 player can pass up edges has been brought up many times. The thing that makes a good 16 player, though, is NOT passing up edges. It's finding as many as possible and taking all of them. It's true that with some variance will go up, but if a play is clearly right, as is often the case in the examples you gave, you can't not take it because it's not "+EV enough"

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it really that unreasonable to pass up on a slight +EV advantage in order to wait for a better one? Especially when you risk crashing out but you still have a healthy stack.

[darom03]

I have begun using a higher "standard" calling range for the BB for villains I have not played with before.

I simply assign them a 30% calling range, thus making shoves not nearly as profitable as a more standard 25% range.

It sounds very generic, I know, but it's a good guideline for the 27's. Especially against people who seems a bit tight, since they probably know enough to recognize the situations where I could push any2 from the SB.

[futuredoc85]

the concept behind this is that what we are actually trying to maximize is overall EV for each SNG, and that is not the same as taking every single +EV spot. i.e. taking a +.1% edge which leads to a +.2% edge on the next hand and a +.4% edge on the hand after that is less optimal than folding the +.1 edge if it will lead to a +.7% edge which in turns leads to a +2.0% edge.

[linuxrocks]

[ QUOTE ]
This post is just a long-winded excuse for being results-oriented or weak-tight. Maybe both.

Saying it's important to think about what ranges actually are is a good point, but i'm not sure it was ever really said in OP.

Either way, the main point that a good 16 player can pass up edges has been brought up many times. The thing that makes a good 16 player, though, is NOT passing up edges. It's finding as many as possible and taking all of them. It's true that with some variance will go up, but if a play is clearly right, as is often the case in the examples you gave, you can't not take it because it's not "+EV enough"

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, I am not being results-oriented. I am actually winning these flips as I am running hot. I guess I was trying to get at passing up small edges because they are much smaller than you think. That's all.

And I quote from above

[ QUOTE ]

the concept behind this is that what we are actually trying to maximize is overall EV for each SNG, and that is not the same as taking every single +EV spot. i.e. taking a +.1% edge which leads to a +.2% edge on the next hand and a +.4% edge on the hand after that is less optimal than folding the +.1 edge if it will lead to a +.7% edge which in turns leads to a +2.0% edge.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well said.

[DevinLake]

I'm not going to say whether anyone's arguments are results oriented or not, because I honestly didn't read a lot of them closely.

But, over a significant sample of sngs, you should be results oriented to a certain level.

I didn't learn what I should be pushing over limpers and what I shouldn't by running numbers (I probably should have). I learned by trial and error. A trend I noticed was at low levels they were limping medium aces and pocket pairs and calling pushes. So, obviously you have to exercise restraint when trying to punish limpers.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not going to say whether anyone's arguments are results oriented or not, because I honestly didn't read a lot of them closely.

But, over a significant sample of sngs, you should be results oriented to a certain level

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, you should be results oriented up to the point that all of your chips are in the middle. But the OP was upset that his AJ was called by KQ with 150 dead chips in the middle, because he busted out when all the cards were played. That's what is meant by being results oriented, and it's not a good thing.

[linuxrocks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not going to say whether anyone's arguments are results oriented or not, because I honestly didn't read a lot of them closely.

But, over a significant sample of sngs, you should be results oriented to a certain level

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, you should be results oriented up to the point that all of your chips are in the middle. But the OP was upset that his AJ was called by KQ with 150 dead chips in the middle, because he busted out when all the cards were played. That's what is meant by being results oriented, and it's not a good thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was not upset. It's just an example and I also mentioned 66. I don't mind them calling, but I am worried whether pushing is really that big a +EV. I now believe that it's very marginal.

[FlyWf]

With AJ? Against these donks? AJo is the worst I do it with, but it's definitely a push. Their limping range is something like pairs JJ and lower, big Kings, medium Aces, and random crap. When you push they call with their medium Aces, big Kings, and pairs and they fold their random crap. It's fantastic. You're almost always +cEV after you get called, which means the push is immensely +cEV. Getting called with 66 isn't bad at all when it's one of the worse possible outcomes. You can eat a few 45%s to pick up 300 chips most of the time and be 60% in a pot that's 220% the size of your stack half the time you do get called.

Punishing limpers is crucial for chip accumlation, and it's just about the only time you can show down a push after l2 and not hurt your table image.

[Desdia01]

[ QUOTE ]
With AJ? Against these donks? AJo is the worst I do it with, but it's definitely a push. Their limping range is something like pairs JJ and lower, big Kings, medium Aces, and random crap. When you push they call with their medium Aces, big Kings, and pairs and they fold their random crap. It's fantastic. You're almost always +cEV after you get called, which means the push is immensely +cEV. Getting called with 66 isn't bad at all when it's one of the worse possible outcomes. You can eat a few 45%s to pick up 300 chips most of the time and be 60% in a pot that's 220% the size of your stack half the time you do get called.

Punishing limpers is crucial for chip accumlation, and it's just about the only time you can show down a push after l2 and not hurt your table image.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cosign.