Affirmative Action

[lehighguy]

Most private schools already make it possible for qualified poor kids to go to college. It's called a scholarship. I got one to go to an expensive elite uni. Unis award them because they recognize a school fool of lazy rich white kids that drink all day isn't necessarily a good future.

Affirmative action is basically a way for rich underachieving black kids to kick poor hard working white kids out of college so rich white kids parents can feel good about themselves without actually sacrifing anything.

[Koss]

As a Michigan voter who's undecided on this one, I have a couple opinions. First off, a lot of the arguments you are hearing these days for affirmative action have less to do with giving a leg-up to minorities and more about how creating diversity in the workplace and education is better for the global economy. This was the defense used by the University of Michigan several years back when people got fed up with their admissions process. For an in-state white male getting into U of M was about as tough as getting into an ivy-league school. But if you were black you basically needed a pulse. But it wasn't the poor inner-city blacks going there, but a lot of the suburban, grew up in $300k houses blacks. So then they turned to this argument about how creating diversity is good for education. Not too sure I buy it.

The other problem with these public proposals is how vague they are. The propaganda surrounding all of these things is enormous. Tons of commercials with both sides telling their BS horror stories of how horrible the world will be if this passes/doesn't pass. It makes it very difficult to make an informed decision without any idea what the real ramifications will be. We only get the worst case not very realistic scenarios about what will happen.

Personally, I think I'm voting for the ban, simply because I don't buy the arguments about why creating diversity at the cost of shutting out more qualified but less racially diverse individuals is a good thing. Convince me before the 7th, and I could very well change my mind.

I'm all for giving advantages to kids and workers who achieved well coming from poor schools even if 95% of them happen to be black, but when you start giving the same advantages to the rich blacks and don't offer them to the poor whites, the arguments lose all their weight in my opinion.

[bkholdem]

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The other problem with these public proposals is how vague they are. The propaganda surrounding all of these things is enormous. Tons of commercials with both sides telling their BS horror stories of how horrible the world will be if this passes/doesn't pass.

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Back in the 70's when they were trying to get self service gas stations allowed in MA there were horror stories in the media about how there would be gas spills and fires, etc.

And as you said affirmative action is actually 'helping' middle class, upper middle class, and upper class blacks. It helps them get better spots at better schools and then gives them the fast track to promotions in the working world (40 Sr. Managers in a company, 2 are black, the rest are white males. How many white males do you think they will promote to VP consecutively before promoting one of the 2 black guys? I would put the over under at about 6-10 and no more even if the 2 black guys are the least EV for the company compared to their white counterparts).

I am against affirmative action on principle, and even more against it since the primary benefitiaries are middle/upper middle class blacks and white woman.

Someone can always 'make a case' for something. What you need to do is listen to ALL perspectives and then form an opinion.

[MyTurn2Raise]

I'm just going to chime in and say that I have studied race relations in this country quite a bit, because I find it the most embarrassing blight in this country's history.


I highly recommend reading John McWhorter's "Winning the Race: Beyond the Crisis in Black American," John McWhorter's "Losing the Race: Self-Sabotage in Black America," and "The End of Racism" by Dinesh D'Souza.

all are very good and hit this topic

FWIW, I'm against affirmative action due to what I observed at the University level. Too often, minority students with less qualifications would make it in and struggle to pass the courseload required. This resulted in a dropping down to 'easy' majors. Minorities failed to achieve in the hard sciences or programs that lead to high paying future jobs. I think that if they had gone to a more suitable university, they would likely have handled the coursework required for tougher programs of study and achieved a higher paying job and brighter career prospects upon graduation.

I am a white dude of Northern European descent whose family has spent 5+ generations within the same Midwestern state, so it's tough for me to fully identify with such issues. As a side note, I'm quite surprised at how many whites are backing out of the hard majors as well these days.

[JMAnon]

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Anyone who tells you that black people are inherently stupider than whites because their average test scores and GPAs are lower than those of white people either has a really high degree of stupidity, a really high degree of bigotry, or perhaps a medium amount of both. The educational inequality stems from economic inequality, not from genetic inequality.


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If you look at the numbers, racial achievement gaps persist even after controlling for socio-economic status. That doesn't mean that genetics are the sole cause of the remaining gap, but it certainly suggests that genetics play some role. In fact, I would be incredibly surprised if genetics did not play a role in racial achievement gaps. Just like some racial groups are, on average, better athletes, taller, shorter, more likely to be obese, etc., it makes sense that some racial groups would also have, on average, different mental characteristics, including intelligence. If you are afraid to admit that possibility, I understand, because the social stigma associated with being labeled "racist" is very severe for caucasians.

[Propertarian]

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If you look at the numbers, racial achievement gaps persist even after controlling for socio-economic status. That doesn't mean that genetics are the sole cause of the remaining gap, but it certainly suggests that genetics play some role.

[/ QUOTE ] No, it doesn't. It could easily be entirely a result of racism and/or lack of "connections". That said, it is possible that genetics play some role; you just haven't provided any evidence that it does.

[Propertarian]

To those who think it would be better to have affirmative action based on class and not race (like myself):

If we start with the premise that class based affirmative action is not a realistic possibility, race based is preferable to no affirmative action at all, because minority groups make up a disproportionate ammount of lower/working class people.

[hmkpoker]

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If we start with the premise that class based affirmative action is not a realistic possibility, race based is preferable to no affirmative action at all, because minority groups make up a disproportionate ammount of lower/working class people.

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All affirmative action does is redistribute opportunity between people of approximately equal class. It does not affect the white people at the top, who are pretty much the reason why the white average SES is higher than the black average SES. I mean think about it, are any venture capitalists losing their jobs to minorities? AA seeks to achieve inter-race equality by further impoverishing the white middle/lower class so that the white average is lower. It doesn't affect the people that really create the income gap. It entirely ignores the context.

Longer explanation here

[Propertarian]

Your description of it is overly simplistic; it also doesn't apply to the college cases.

Also, I was thinking of what class someone was born into, not what class they currently occupy.

[hmkpoker]

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Your description of it is overly simplistic; it also doesn't apply to the college cases.

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This is true; even the top colleges must employ affirmative action. It's still crap though. I thought it was unfair to see a black kid with a SAT of 1290 get a full scholarship with a 2.5 GPA requirement when no white kid from the same background and qualifications would ever get that, but hey, that's me. I guess I don't understand equality.