Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop

[EverettKings]

Check it

With this stack size, if your continuation bet gets anything but two folds, you are done with the hand. You have no room to manipulate if you get reraised. If called your only hope is to shell off half of your stack or give up the pot. Even if you get called and pair up, you now have built a big pot that you probably can't get away from with so few chips. This is troublesome.

If your hand had NO room for improvement then I might consider a 1500 chip continuation bet. But you have a 3 straight and 3 flush and two overs and position, so taking a card off can do wonders for you. If you turn a good draw you're in an excellent spot to semi bluff a bettor off of their hand. If a brick comes and someone bets much you can get away with relatively little invested. If you hit a pair you can play some poker in a relatively controlled pot.

All signs point to checking as the option that gives me the best chance to outplay the other two. Betting lets them pick me apart.

Everett

[adanthar]

I'm gonna go one step further: if you feel compelled to bet this flop because you raised PF and it's a nice pot now, etc., you were very, very wrong to raise.

The ONLY time I would bet here is if I was gonna take CSC's line and 3 bet the CR that is obviously coming, but if you are gonna play this for all your chips vs. that same limping CO, you're going to have to square that with the 'but he could be trapping' posts everyone just made in the last thread.

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
The ONLY time I would bet here is if I was gonna take CSC's line and 3 bet the CR that is obviously coming

[/ QUOTE ]
This is obviously deep stack poker and very different from the online tourneys we usually play. Can you explain what makes the hand up until now an obvious one to check-raise and by whom (MJ or CO)?

[Crispy]

This is how i see the hand playing out.

Option 1 - You bet 1200. (Standard Continuation)
I expect MJ to call with all top pairs and midpairs and depending on the hand of CO, wether he has hit his set or got an open ended draw or not, he is going to push or fold. Then on the turn, hopefully having a club, jack, or ace hit, when MJ checks to you you check behind him. Reason for this is that even if MJ has hit a monster such as a set you have that extra club to possibly come on the turn, or maybe even a chance to fill in a possible straight draw. ALso this hides your preflop raise and continuation bet and makes it seem like you raised with nothing and are scared of the flop. On the river I expect to check/call with any TP, and bet out my flushes/straights, twopairs etc.

Option 2 - Check behind him. Doing this you have to know that you are going to get action on the turn. MP will probably now bet out his TP or MP and CO will push or fold depending again on his sets, twopairs. If he hasnt hit his draw here i probably expect him to fold. If the turn is a pretty card such as a J, or a club i would call any bet for half/pot because implied odds and range of MP might be a bit loose.

Final Point - We are going to fold to any push from CO.

[adanthar]

Let's start with MJ: he is an experienced pro that can apparently play a deep stack game. Given the PF action so far I can basically reliably put him on about...two cards. Between the chance of him trapping, the chance that he hit this flop (which has some draws, missed half the stuff I'd raise with, and hit all of the QT, middle Broadway type coldcalling hands) somehow, and the chance that he's planning to CR me with air, I think I get popped by MJ alone close to half the time.

Moving onto the CO the other half of the time, he limp/called, which narrows *his* hands down to maybe the top 80%. If he has anything more than 54s, he's ahead of me, and in addition, with a CR after MJ folds, he can represent a monster whether or not he has one.

Raising PF is a worse minefield than calling is. That's OK (Hero's in a 10K buyin; he ought to be able to handle that better than me, for instance), given you can navigate it. If you can't, though, the right play is almost always going to be the one that keeps the pot smaller until you have more info about how strong your hand is.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's start with MJ: he is an experienced pro that can apparently play a deep stack game. Given the PF action so far I can basically reliably put him on about...two cards. Between the chance of him trapping, the chance that he hit this flop (which has some draws, missed half the stuff I'd raise with, and hit all of the QT, middle Broadway type coldcalling hands) somehow, and the chance that he's planning to CR me with air, I think I get popped by MJ alone close to half the time.


[/ QUOTE ]

I just made a post in the preflop thread about my read on MJ's play that maybe I should have stated up front. I've played with him in two large buyin events (this one and the 1500NL wsop). Both times he was to my direct left. He was the picture of solid pro. Think Dan Harrington vol. 1. Solid values for his position. Tight from the blinds and EP, selective vs. raises...

given the fact that he flat called preflop knowing that he was going to be OOP the whole time and he wasn't closing the action vs. a semi-scary open limp from the CO told me everything I needed to know about his hand. 22-JJ, AK, AQ. Possibly a random suited connector / bluffing hand if he had some read on me or the CO that I didn't know about.

In short, he either hit this flop hard, or whiffed.

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
I just made a post in the preflop thread about my read on MJ's play that maybe I should have stated up front. I've played with him in two large buyin events (this one and the 1500NL wsop). Both times he was to my direct left. He was the picture of solid pro. Think Dan Harrington vol. 1. Solid values for his position. Tight from the blinds and EP, selective vs. raises...

given the fact that he flat called preflop knowing that he was going to be OOP the whole time and he wasn't closing the action vs. a semi-scary open limp from the CO told me everything I needed to know about his hand. 22-JJ, AK, AQ. Possibly a random suited connector / bluffing hand if he had some read on me or the CO that I didn't know about.

In short, he either hit this flop hard, or whiffed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not only is no apology necessary for not stating this up front, I think it made the discussion better. This aspect of the hand was an important test: Do people realize that a flat call of your raise from a good player likely means something, given that he has the worst position and doesn't care if CO might be trapping? Even against a wacky any-two-cards player like Hansen or Negreanu, unless they had been playing virtually every hand, I'd be concerned about a real hand here. There's just so many better spots for a pro to toss a few chips in and gamble.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
Not only is no apology necessary for not stating this up front, I think it made the discussion better. This aspect of the hand was an important test: Do people realize that a flat call of your raise from a good player likely means something, given that he has the worst position and doesn't care if CO might be trapping? Even against a wacky any-two-cards player like Hansen or Negreanu, unless they had been playing virtually every hand, I'd be concerned about a real hand here. There's just so many better spots for a pro to toss a few chips in and gamble.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even better to make a continuation bet here, find out where you stand. If MJ calls or raises, with the CO left to act, you can be sure you are behind in this spot. But with the CO left to act, if he folds, then we're in better shape here.

[EverettKings]

[ QUOTE ]


I just made a post in the preflop thread about my read on MJ's play that maybe I should have stated up front. I've played with him in two large buyin events (this one and the 1500NL wsop). Both times he was to my direct left. He was the picture of solid pro. Think Dan Harrington vol. 1. Solid values for his position. Tight from the blinds and EP, selective vs. raises...

given the fact that he flat called preflop knowing that he was going to be OOP the whole time and he wasn't closing the action vs. a semi-scary open limp from the CO told me everything I needed to know about his hand. 22-JJ, AK, AQ. Possibly a random suited connector / bluffing hand if he had some read on me or the CO that I didn't know about.

In short, he either hit this flop hard, or whiffed.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is the case, then I think betting the flop is mandatory and folding to further aggression is also mandatory.

If he missed his hand, you bet 1500, he very likely folds, and the CO is highly unlikely to c/r you here OOP without a real hand. You can safely fold to a reraise, since it's quite likely that you're smoked and a push will certainly not win you the pot off of a set or even JJ (since you dont have enough chips).

If he hit his hand, you bet 1500 and MJ calls or raises. You are now officially done with the hand. Checking the flop here is DISASTROUS because you can go on to hit your hand or a draw and lose all of your chips. You no longer know where you're at and he can get the chips in as he pleases. By checking you can only win the pot if you hit AND he didn't nail the flop AND he doesnt dominate your ace if you hit it.

My earlier read was something like Adanthar's, where his range is enormous and includes lots of garbage and one pair hands. But with Soss's description, ya gotta take your one shot at the pot now.

Everett

[Exitonly]

why is a flop bet mandatory? if what was said is true, then he's most likely setting a trap for you and is going to checkraise.