Theory - EP in Full Ring

[RUSE]

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RUSE,

Yeah, it is possible to argue that you won't win the hand as often as when you are shorthanded than when you are multi-way, but that's not really the point. When you've got a hand like A7s or 76s, you're not really looking to flop a pair, you're looking to catch a big hand that can make a big pot. Implied odds are tremendous in multi-way pots, simply because its so much more likely that someone else catches a piece with you.

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Yeah, I have to agree with you here. And it has been long since i've sat at a FR table. This sort of flashed through my mind when i was writing the post late last night and prompted the writing of the final paragraph. There ARE huge differences between the two (FR and 6max) and this I need to compensate for. I may try to get reacquainted with FR as it definitely has depths to it I hadn't realized fully before.

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To everyone else:
The hands like AJs and KQs also don't fair too well when you raise it because you're most likely to be beaten when you are called. Now this can be argued at a very loose table, and I'm sure you can pick which table situations make it right to raise or limp, but generally even the live ones tighten up significantly when you raise. What you DON'T want is that everyone folds their KTo and QJo, because you're so far ahead of them and can often score 2 or 3 bets while facing no resistance. A raise from EP gets people to fold the hands you beat, and call with the hands that beat you are have live draws against you.

I really do think that your 6-max playing has "clouded" your judgement for full ring, especially EP... you either advocate SUPER tight playing or super loose-aggressive playing like you're playing 6-max. There is a comfortable middle-ground in full ring.

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[Dan Bitel]

NewUser2006,

OMFG, how the [censored] can you recommend limping KQ/AJ UTG as standard?!?!?! What the hell do you do if some1 raises?

[NewUser2006]

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NewUser2006,

OMFG, how the [censored] can you recommend limping KQ/AJ UTG as standard?!?!?! What the hell do you do if some1 raises?

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Well you'll never catch me saying it's correct to limp KQo and AJo from EP. They must be suited, and there must be a decent (decent meaning probably >50%) chance that I won't be faced with a big raise from someone in late position. If I am raised, I'm usually going to call unless I'm the only limper or the raise is so big that I'm really getting priced out.

You should have a feel for the raiser to know what types of hands he raises to know if KQs or AJs is ahead of that range. Against a typical FRer, they are pretty far behind. You may very well be saving yourself a big pot by figuring out that you're likely behind/dominated preflop.

[Dan Bitel]

NewUser2006,

exactly why limping is terrible.

Fold>raise>limp

[derosnec]

Devil's advocate here:

First, KQs is listed as a "bread and butter hand" in NLTP (although there are a million disclaimers at teh beginning of the preflop chapter). That group of hands is the best in NL. The book emphasizes that starting hands in NL should be judged based on how well they extract value from opponents, not based on their showdown value (this isn't limit).

Also, continuing the devil's advocate (I never open limp), open limping is profitable for hands that play great multiway. Say you have 77. If you raise, you might just pick up the blinds or fold your opponent heads up when you make a big hand. But if you limp, and some of your opponents are terrbile post-flop (like going too far with top pair), then you stand to make more when you do hit a set and they hit top pair/two pair.

Yes, position matters alot, but preflop bets (even if you get raised after you limp) are very small compared to the big pay off when the flop hits you (assuming your opponent pays you off).

[Fallen Hero]

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Say you have 77. If you raise, you might just pick up the blinds or fold your opponent heads up when you make a big hand. But if you limp, and some of your opponents are terrbile post-flop (like going too far with top pair), then you stand to make more when you do hit a set and they hit top pair/two pair.


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(why raise pf with small pp's)
"because you have an equity edge, because it makes you harder to read, because flopping a set in a raised pot>>flopping a set in a limped pot, because raising is more fun, because you can't win the blinds by limping, and probably some other reasons I'm not thinking of..."

- TWP

[derosnec]

If you're folding out people preflop by raising 77 - people who would go too far postflop when they limp along and catch top pair when you hit your set - then why not limp?

If they're calling preflop raises (or raising limpers), then raise of course.

(I'm still in devil's advocate mode)

[NewUser2006]

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NewUser2006,

exactly why limping is terrible.

Fold>raise>limp

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So you're telling me that a hand like KQs or AJs has a 0 or negative expected profit from EP no matter how it is played?

You aren't able to make up 1-4BBs in expectation from having a hand that can win very big pots? In certain table conditions, this could be very true, but the game has got to be very tough.

So that is my little bit about why fold < (raise || limp). Now to see why limp is often > raise, I will rehash what I've been saying this entire time.

Big pots are for big hands, small pots are for small hands... I'm sure few people disagree with this (although inexperienced players often get it backwards). When you make a raise preflop with KQs or AJs, you make it so you can no longer play a small pot with it. You'll be putting substantially more money in the pot with a one pair hand than you would like to, and you'll often to be put to the test for your entire stack if someone decides to continue the hand. In general, facing a tough decision with a weak hand is not going to be profitable.

On the other hand, if you limp it, you may still sometimes face a raise and be put to a tough decision, but you are MUCH less likely to get stacked in the hand if you only hit top pair. Limping still allows you to play a big pot though, since when you hit it hard you will often be multi-way and able to drag one or two people along for a few bets.

To sum it up: you should try to keep pots small out of position, and make them big in position with cards that can make big hands.

[epdaws]

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you should try to keep pots small out of position, and make them big in position with cards that can make big hands.

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I don't mind playing raised or big pots with pocket pairs from ALL positions, as they are cake to play.

[NewUser2006]

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you should try to keep pots small out of position, and make them big in position with cards that can make big hands.

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I don't mind playing raised or big pots with pocket pairs from ALL positions, as they are cake to play.

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pocket pairs are an exception. Sklansky even writes about that in his book.