Flush draw on a paired board. Extract or Get Away? 100NL

[King Spew]

The following post is a Theory post. As such, the best way to read, contribute, and learn would be to read the first post, then post your response before reading the balance of the thread. The is called "Grunching" here on 2+2.


Two part question.


First Question

You are a multitabling positional TAG.
Villain is a tad looser, but you think he has a good game and is aware of the game you play. He is a positionally aware player. You haven't seen him out of line or 'show' a bluff, but you have seen what you think are good 'moves' against others.... moves you would make in the same situation.

Effective stacks: 140BB

You have A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and raise 1st in on the button with a 4X raise and BB calls.

Flop is 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB checks to you and you CBet ¾PSB. BB calls.

Turn is 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and villain checks.

2+2 FR...... talk to me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Javanewt]

I bet at least half, maybe a little more.

I almost never slow play.

Also, if you don't get money here, how are you going to get any on the river? I highly doubt villain is going to bet river unless he makes a boat or has quad 2s. If he has a smaller flush, he's calling or c/r you on turn.

[Done like Dinner]

I bet but I make it look like a block bet. Probably 2/3 the pot and hopefully he repops us(I just call reraise). If he has house (probably not) we will probably go bust but with 140BB I am willing to down. Checking the turn will almost only induce another check by the observant opponent.

[CazicT]

If you bet, it seems the only way you will make much money off this hand is if the villian happens to have a flush in which case you should be able to get a little bit from him.

If you check, you pick up the possibility that the villian will bluff the river or make a flush on the river where you can again make a little money.

Seems like the only other possibilities are betting and he folds or betting and he crushes you with a full house or quads.

Regular old trip 2's would not have played this passively I have to believe and PP's will probably fold to a turn bet.

So I think I like checking behind since a free card most likely won't hurt us and it allows the villian to either make second best hand or bluff on the river.

[raistlinx]

[ QUOTE ]
If you bet, it seems the only way you will make much money off this hand is if the villian happens to have a flush in which case you should be able to get a little bit from him.

If you check, you pick up the possibility that the villian will bluff the river or make a flush on the river where you can again make a little money.

Seems like the only other possibilities are betting and he folds or betting and he crushes you with a full house or quads.

Regular old trip 2's would not have played this passively I have to believe and PP's will probably fold to a turn bet.

So I think I like checking behind since a free card most likely won't hurt us and it allows the villian to either make second best hand or bluff on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this as well given your read on him.

[the_main]

I'd think his most likely holding is a mid pocket pair, probably with a spade.

I probably bet here, about half to 2/3s of the pot. It could be conceived as a 2nd barrel bluff as this board doesnt connect with much, other than 2 spades.

Basically, I'm trying to get my money in here.

[five4suited]

I think you need to bet enough to make him think that the 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] didn't help you, but you're trying to make him fold... a 1/2 psb? (I'd bet half, I think.) While a check on the turn may induce a bet/bluff on the river, any one of the 8 remaining spades or any one of the 18 remaining overcards to the board may very well kill your action. And if a 9 or 6 hits, you'll have to seriously consider folding to a river donk, no? So make a post-oak type bet now.

A decent 'looser-than-TAG' villain with a solid game could be holding a lot of hands here, against a steal raise... two broadways, a middle pair, 87s, etc. And if he's holding garbage and planned to make a move, then a turn CR might be coming! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[King Spew]

First Question

You are a multitabling positional TAG.
Villain is a tad looser, but you think he has a good game and is aware of the game you play. He is a positionally aware player. You haven't seen him out of line or 'show' a bluff, but you have seen what you think are good 'moves' against others.... moves you would make in the same situation.

Effective stacks: 140BB

You have A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and raise 1st in on the button with a 4X raise and BB calls.

Flop(9BB) is 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB checks to you and you CBet ¾PSB. BB calls.


<font color="blue">Question 2</font>

Turn (23BB) is 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and villain checks. Hero bets ½PSB. Villain calls.

River (46BB)is J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and villain checks.

Hero??

[CalledDownLight]

I bet more on the turn, robably about 15-16 BB. On the river I bet 30 BB as played. I don't see any reason to believe we are ever behind here and if so then its a cooler. He's not folding a flush and probably not trip 2s either. Put him to the test and look for a hero call.

[RyanCMU]

Bets, its a button vs blind situation and he ccould be calling down here with a very ride range...