A Seif Bet - for those who still believe a word he, or AP, says

[crashjr]

I'm pretty sure I covered all of this, but ok, I'll bite since you asked me what I think it means:

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What a surprise, we can't convict him in a US court without the power to actually obtain evidence (or punish the destruction of evidence)? The fact that he cannot be convicted in a US court is meaningless, nor is it even the slightest defense given the situation.

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Convict??? You don't even have grounds for an arrest yet. Also, I didn't say that he needed to be convicted in order to start discplinary proceedings with the state bar, someone else that practices in another state did. There does not need to be a conviction to begin disciplinary procedings in California.

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He engaged in incredibly suspicious activity and has yet to even attempt to clear his name. And the evidence that could possible clear his name is conveniently missing. The only thing he can lose here is his credibility, and he seems very willing to throw it away in order to protect himself from more meaningful losses. What do you think that means?

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He did try to clear his name. Not very effectively - and certainly not what I would have done if I were him - but he posted in his CP blog, posted on 2+2, gave interviews to Raw Vegas, and has been in contact with Nat. What else is he supposed to do? So you don't like the way he came off - so what?

So, what do I think his actions mean?

I don't think he cheated.

I think he feels cornered by a mob and hasn't constructed a well thought out plan for addressing his sugested involvement and the attendant lynch mob on the poker forums. I think he should talk it over with someone he trusts that is versed in public relations. I think he overreacted. I think he should stop threatening lawsuits. I have other thoughts too, but I already over-answered your question.

[JPFisher55]

You might begin discplinary proceedings, but even a reprimand for stealing in a non-law practice setting without a conviction or plea in a court? Anyway you are right, no evidence against Mr. Seif has been raised.

[pokergrader]

You don't think he cheated, I think he did. We clearly have different burdens of proof in this situation.

I think there are more than enough proven cover ups and inconsistencies with his statements to back up my statement. And why is there a lynch mob? Well maybe because this company stole 7 digits worth of money from these people and has yet to release satisfactory statements about the length and breadth of the cheating. So what does Seif have to do? Use his position to actually give us some worthwhile information. Tell us exactly how long this has been going on, and name names.

The idea that this security hole was introduced in a recent version of the software is also ridiculous. Having the ability to view hole cards in real time is almost certainly a design decision made when the software was first created, and the fact that this security hole has just been exploited in the past 2 months just doesn't make sense.

Look, I understand you point of view. Lawyers deal with facts, and here we don't have facts (and never will). I am dealing with informed speculation that certainly seems valid given the situation.

[N 82 50 24]

AP claims the hole was created in June and it was first exploited partway through August.

Whether you believe that or not is another story. I don't think I believe it 100%, but I also don't really think this has been going on for years on a relatively covert level followed by a month or so of complete madness that was the most obvious cheating in the history of poker. I have yet to see suspect HHs from before August, so it would be a huge help if someone out there could produce some and post them on 2p2.

I am in regular contact with people at AP at this point and I'm going to ask for as much transparency as possible. At the moment they're basically saying they want to wait for the audit results before becoming much more transparent and release a lot of details. The guy basically said they don't want to say "we've paid everyone back" when the audit might find more accounts or "the breach happened on such and such dates" when that might not be the case. For obvious reasons, they want to know the full story as defined by the audit. I'm still willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on the idea that some of the management there might not know the full story. Some of the upper level people in place there now were not involved, I am absolutely 100% confident in that. If they don't follow through on the transparency promises when the audit concludes, I'd say there's little hope for AP as a leading online poker room.

[redCashion]

Other than leading the case against Jamie Gold, does the guy even practice law any more? It's seems like he makes much more money being a part owner of a corrupt online poker firm than he ever could having a 9 to 5.

[Daack]

Here's Nat weighing in on Seif's chat comments about the potripper tournament.

To this day, Seif is STILL trying to sow doubt about cheating in that tournament.

He just posted on 2p2 that potripper may have ACCIDENTALLY clicked call at the end of that tournament instead of fold.

Give us a f'ng break Seif.

IT WASN'T AN ACCIDENT. IT WAS CHEATING.

You earned the title of LIAR with your comments about the potripper tournament.

It is not a big stretch from LIAR to CHEATER.

[apefish]

crashjr is owning this thread if only because he's one of the few to say Seif has acted badly/obtuse but that isn't proof of anything.

These threads have very diminishing returns if they simply continue to be a "burn the witch BURN HER" type endeavor.

Absolute Poker sucks with how they handled this. They may continue to suck with what they do.
Mark Seif has been looking out for Mark Seif in all his actions.
It may make him a total dbag to people, but it doesn't mean he cheated.

I got sick of looking for deeper nefarious plots a while ago.
They may be revealed at some point, but just shouting and yelling it doesn't make it happen.

[Daack]

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...some of the management there might not know the full story.


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Hmmmm. Perhaps. Rooting out corruption from within is an impossibly tricky business.

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Some of the upper level people in place there now were not involved, I am absolutely 100% confident in that.


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That is good to hear.

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If they don't follow through on the transparency promises when the audit concludes, I'd say there's little hope for AP as a leading online poker room.


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A HUGE issue for me is that there are simple things they could be doing right now to calm the situation down.

Returning cash to their players certainly helps.

Seif running around denying POTRIPPER cheated, then saying POTRIPPER did cheat, yet posting a retarded explanation for why he found the replay confusing does not.

If AP provides proof through transparency and includes a full accounting for how the crime was perpetrated, they may have a shot.

I don't think anyone wants to take them down for the sake of taking them down.

Those who has been wronged have the right to react with fury against those who have wronged them.

The wrongdoers will usually have a chance to make it right, BUT if anyone picks up the tiniest whiff of anything off-color or out of sorts it will be over.

2p2 is watching you AP, do the right thing.

[suzzer99]

I just want AP to sell the FULL story to Masterminds so they can make an episode out of it, and at least someday we'll know most of what happened. In fun dramatized fashion.

[pokergrader]

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crashjr is owning this thread if only because he's one of the few to say Seif has acted badly/obtuse but that isn't proof of anything.

These threads have very diminishing returns if they simply continue to be a "burn the witch BURN HER" type endeavor.

Absolute Poker sucks with how they handled this. They may continue to suck with what they do.
Mark Seif has been looking out for Mark Seif in all his actions.
It may make him a total dbag to people, but it doesn't mean he cheated.

I got sick of looking for deeper nefarious plots a while ago.
They may be revealed at some point, but just shouting and yelling it doesn't make it happen.

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I agree, but at least keeping this thread up keeps the issue relevant, which is more pressure for them release answers.

If we just forget about the whole thing, they will to.