another bad river bet-call

[johnnyrocket]

wow sickening hand, i agree with the river tho, i dont like betting here for value cuz its a tight spot. Against weaker opponents i'd bet here but not against yssky

[Heisenb3rg]

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Therefore,
I hate a check and I hate a fold. Well played sir.

Especially vs myles who ive seen pull moves on 2+2ers.

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You think Miles pays off enough?

chez

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I'll answer your question with another question
Would you ever bet KJ/QJ/78s/KQ/J8 here if those were your hands instead?

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Fair point but I don't have/bet them enough for Miles to call (and he know it). Not saying I shouldn't have/bet them often enough for him to call.

chez

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I think you'd be amazed how surprinslgy little we know about the subtle differences between various TAG's games. While most 2+2ers play almost identical fundamentals, their frequences in sitautions like this can differ substantially.

Why not save yourself a headache and take solice in the fact that if the only hands he has are bluffs and trip 5's, you can check behind all your other pairs worse than a pair of aces and profit. He's now losing money AGAINST YOUR RANGE by checking the river with trip 5's. This is because your range is composed of less aces than 9x,Tx, JJ-KK and you would likely call his bet with a lot of them. (you are checking or folding a lot of ace high hands on the turn)

You still come out ahead by him being fancy.. Also, if he decides to call your bet.. Well now you gain too. If you find out later on 2+2 that he folded Tx, then start bluffing :P

If you have a specific read (I'm sure myles wouldnt do blah blah blah) than use it. If not, you might as well play so he can't outplay you. For all you know, he has a read.
Assuming you wouldn't also check trip 5's in his situation, you've already won the battle of mistakes in this hand and made a bit of money.

[marching_on_together]

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T95 double suited flop and you guys think people check the turn a lot? I'd check a lot, but almost everyone puts you on a loose peel and bets almost every time. And then they call down the check raise with AJ. It's sick.

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No i think the average player would bet the turn alot but in this specifc example i would expect a decent 2+2 to check here. Most people in this thread seem to want to check against you with Ax so that makes this a flop raise.

[milesdyson]

They say they want to check because I check raised. No one knew how I played until now. You shouldn't expect a TAG to c/c, c/r made hands too often, and without knowledge that they do this, you should be betting the turn and taking the free showdown.

Plus chezlaw 3-bets drawy boards with overcards and takes free cards. If he never did this I would be more likely to just check raise the flop.

[MacGuyV]

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Plus chezlaw 3-bets drawy boards with overcards

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O'rly, don't think i've c/r/folded vs. him ever but now i have to make sure [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[chezlaw]

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They say they want to check because I check raised. No one knew how I played until now. You shouldn't expect a TAG to c/c, c/r made hands too often, and without knowledge that they do this, you should be betting the turn and taking the free showdown.

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I'm suprised people are suggesting I check this turn (makes more sense from your p.o.v as I could have a much less).

but then this whole thread has been suprising and very interesting. At least no-one says we did anything wrong pre flop [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

chez

[milesdyson]

Here's my take.

Preflop: Standard raise. Standard defend.

Flop: Standard cbet on your part. I guess my call is not standard, but I think calling planning to check raise most turns is a better plan on this board. Why? Because I think you'll (correctly) bet the turn with almost your whole range, and I think my line looks weird/bluffy enough to get you to call down with AK.

Turn: I think you have to bet this because of how many straight possibilities there are. I don't think you expect me to have a pair very often, and that's a good expectation. I know this too, so I follow through with the plan I made on the flop. You make the call with your draw. FWIW I am almost positive that 3-betting here is the best play for you to make. My range doesn't have many 5x hands, but it does have a ton of 9x hands, pairs like 66, and some Tx hands. I'm basically folding everything but 5x to a 3-bet here. Please don't ever do this, though, haha.

River: This is where it's weird.

[jstill]

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They say they want to check because I check raised. No one knew how I played until now. You shouldn't expect a TAG to c/c, c/r made hands too often, and without knowledge that they do this, you should be betting the turn and taking the free showdown.



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this was pretty much one of the main points i was trying to drive at more or less (and why I was asking questions about how u play) when I was saying i usually bet the turn vs standard villains. And why i was so curious to hear why u said a turn bet was an issue vs u here. I remember at one point u saying u hadnt taken the ck call ck raise line with TPGK or TPMK in a long time and hardly ever do. It seems like so much of ur range on the turn would be semi-bluffs its not even a bad calldown UI, but really a tag should be check-raising the turn so seldomly here (5x is literally the only legit hand, the boards too drawy not to check-raise the flop altho I guess I should start thinking 2nd level about what boards are good for villains to two barrel A hi with) betting for a freeshowdown seems like a no brainer vs all ur worse drawing hands and loose peels wed rather not give a freecard to IMO.

I wonder if this is a spot where we should be have some balance or mixed strategy to be optimal vs observant opponents we play often? I think it should be weighted towards betting to some degree tho.

[milesdyson]

jstill,

What I said earlier was that in an FTOP sense I am going to own ace high on the turn as far as getting bets in. I didn't say he should check, though. I will peel these flops with gutshots which have somewhere between 7 and 9 outs (I think that's right accounting for his nut heart outs) against his ace high. I'll also fold some better aces (or at least aces which have many splitting outs now that the board has paired).

I'm really not sure about his turn play because I don't know how often I play certain hands certain ways. He definitely didn't expect me to play Tx/9x this way, so I think his turn bet is perfect given what he knew.

[thepizzlefosho]

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T95 double suited flop and you guys think people check the turn a lot? I'd check a lot, but almost everyone puts you on a loose peel and bets almost every time. And then they call down the check raise with AJ. It's sick.

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fwiw I rarely call down a turn c/r with AJ on this board against this type (or just about any non lagtard) of player.

I think heisenberg is right in that lots of TAGs vary their play and play this board different ways depending on mood, how well they are running, their opinion about the villain, recently shown down hands, etc.

I think this is the case where there isn't a definite right or wrong way to play it.